The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Ben Masada]

I read it, plenty of times, now read this:

Those jews in Jn 8:44, the seed of abraham Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They were not God's People at all, Jesus indicates that here Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But they had their father in the devil Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those are physical ethnic jews, of abraham's bloodliine He is speaking with ! The ones you take so much pride and glory in, you see How the Son of God thinks of them don't you ?

Now read John 8:31 and imagine how could Jesus speak to the Jews who had believed in him saying that they were children of the Devil. It may make sense to you but not to the one who has a mind of his own. Have you ever considered that Jesus was having that discussion with the Jews who had believed in him? That's the climax of contradiction. Probably that chapter never happened or was interpolated by forgery with the intent to harm the Jews and ended up being a disgusting blunder.

 

[beloved57]

Now read John 8:31 and imagine how could Jesus speak to the Jews who had believed in him saying that they were children of the Devil. It may make sense to you but not to the one who has a mind of his own. Have you ever considered that Jesus was having that discussion with the Jews who had believed in him? That's the climax of contradiction. Probably that chapter never happened or was interpolated by forgery with the intent to harm the Jews and ended up being a disgusting blunder.

I read it, plenty of times, now read this:

Those jews in Jn 8:44, the seed of abraham Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They were not God's People at all, Jesus indicates that here Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But they had their father in the devil Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those are physical ethnic jews, of abraham's bloodliine He is speaking with ! The ones you take so much pride and glory in, you see How the Son of God thinks of them don't you ?

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures !

1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This is limited atonement, for Paul means by here "according to the scriptures", that is by Prophecy or by Type from the OT Scriptures. One such scripture passage is that of Zech 13:1,7

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

And that this refers to the Death of the Shepherd Christ is seen from Vs 7

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

For this was fulfilled here as Jesus was on His way to the Cross Matt 26:31

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written[according to scripture], I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

It refers to His Death for His Sheep, of the Chosen House of David. This reference to the House of David in Zech 13 has much significance to Gentile Salvation as well in the Blood of Christ, here being referred to as the Fountain. The Gospel Preached by Paul, was to both jew and Gentile, for writing to the jew and gentile people of Faith in Romans, he writes Rom 1:1-8

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rom 15:12

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse [house of david], and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

That word trust is the word elpizō:

to hope
in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

hopefully to trust in

The word is derived from elpis which is the word Peter uses in 1 Pet 1:3.

Now the Gentiles here of Rom 15:12 are included in the House of David in Zech 13:1

Also remember Paul's letters to Timothy, a Believer who we understand had a Gentile Father according to the flesh, and note how Paul states in one of his Epistles to him 2 Tim 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ[The Head of the Church] of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

And remember He was raised from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Now also understand that He [Jesus Christ] was also of the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For Abraham and David are from the same elect seed line in scripture; and if He [Jesus Christ] is the Son or Seed of David according to the flesh, then He is the Son or Seed of Abraham Matt 1:1

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son[offspring] of David, the son[offspring] of Abraham.

And so if Believers in Christ [jew and gentile alike] are the Seed or Offspring of Abraham as Per Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.AMP

Then they are also David's Seed, or the Offspring of David, which is also the House of David, and Christ and His Church are One Flesh Eph 5:31-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Remember He was made the Seed of David according to the Flesh Rom 1:3

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

He died for the sins of the Seed of David Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

 

[Ben Masada]

I read it, plenty of times, now read this:

Those jews in Jn 8:44, the seed of abraham Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They were not God's People at all, Jesus indicates that here Jn 8:42

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But they had their father in the devil Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those are physical ethnic jews, of abraham's bloodliine He is speaking with ! The ones you take so much pride and glory in, you see How the Son of God thinks of them don't you ?

That's amazing! You say you have read it plenty of times and have nothing to say about it. Well! Why would Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him children of the Devil in verse 44? You haven't answered my question. Then there is John 8:41. Those Jews who had believed in him must have grown up with him to say that Jesus had been born of fornication which means rape. I wonder if the Panthera myth was true after all.

 

[beloved57]

bm

That's amazing! You say you have read it plenty of times and have nothing to say about it.

And Jesus was telling ethnic jews, the physical seed of Abraham, that they were children of the devil Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He would never say such to God's Chosen People and Children Jn 8:42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 

[beloved57]

How often would I have gathered thy children !

Matt 23:37

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Many today in false religion believe this verse teaches that Christ died for all mankind, and that He desires the Salvation of everyone without exception, however that is reading into the verse what they want it to say and mean. The fact of the matter is, that Christ did not desire all these reprobated jew to be saved, in fact, He had just stated earlier that many of them were of that generation of reprobated serpents , and eternal damnation was there sure portion Matt 23:31-33

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Now the fact is again, Jesus in Vs 37 said nothing about gathering them whom killed the Prophets, and stoned them, no for those were the children of the serpent Matt 23:31-36

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

No, Jesus stated quite clearly, that He would have gathered THEIR CHILDREN, NOT THEM !

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Now who is meant here ? It means, He came to gather from among them some of the Sheep of the jewish fold, some of the True Children of God amongst them, like for instance, the disciples, Nicademus and others. The same thing is taught here Jn 11:51-52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The gathering together here is the same word and gathering together of Matt 23:37.

Yes, there were Children of God amongst the jews, whereas most of them were reprobated.

Jesus was very successful in gathering out from amongst the reprobated jews, the Sheep of that fold, as indicated here Jn 10:1-5,16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But those reprobated jews of the generation of the serpent, who killeth the prophets Matt 23:33,34,37 they are the ones whose eternal damnation is set and sure Vs 33, and even Paul himself writes of their destruction from God 1 Thess 2:14-16

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Notice Paul says something here very important about those apostate jews " to fill up their sins alway:"

Sound familiar ? It should because Our Saviour said the same thing to those reprobates Matt 23:32-33. That physical nation will always be under God's wrath and judgment to the uttermost 1 Thess 2:15-16, Even today they hate the True God and Jesus Christ, and are vainly looking for a ethnic jewish messiah to set up a physical jewish kingdom ! Good Luck with that !

 

[intojoy]

The bible does not say that Christ did not die for everyone. That is a human evaluation and interpretation. No matter how much we may think it makes sense we have to believe what the bible says and not what makes the best sense.

 

[godrulz]

TULIP is wrong. God's love is impartial and not limited. The sacrifice is perfect and intended for all, but only efficacious for those who receive vs reject it.

 

[beloved57]

into

The bible does not say that Christ did not die for everyone.

If that's the case it does not say He did die for everyone !

But it did say He died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15, and that everyone is not His Sheep Jn 10:26 !

 

[beloved57]

TULIP is wrong. God's love is impartial and not limited. The sacrifice is perfect and intended for all, but only efficacious for those who receive vs reject it.

By calling Tulip wrong, you are calling the Gospel wrong, it does not matter if you call it by nick names !

 

[godrulz]

into



If that's the case it does not say He did die for everyone !

But it did say He died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15, and that everyone is not His Sheep Jn 10:26 !

ANYONE can become a sheep by responding to Him vs rejecting Him (Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16 world=unregenerate men, not the elite elect who win an arbitrary lottery).

 

[godrulz]

By calling Tulip wrong, you are calling the Gospel wrong, it does not matter if you call it by nick names !

No, TULIP is a theory by Calvin, etc. about the details of soteriology, perseverance, providence, sovereignty, etc. The gospel is about the person and work of Christ that Calvinists and Arminians agree on in general. Doctrinal disputes/theory/perfection of theological understanding do not save, but Christ and His grace does regardless of academic theory few understand.

 

[beloved57]

gr

No, TULIP is a theory by Calvin

No that's just what you and others call it. Its the Gospel !

 

[beloved57]

gr

ANYONE can become a sheep by responding to Him

Thats a lie, in fact, that is why some do not respond in Faith, because they were not of His Sheep. Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].AMP

Christ never knew them Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Which on the other hand He knows His Sheep Jn 10:14

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

So you do lie !

 

[intojoy]

into



If that's the case it does not say He did die for everyone !

But it did say He died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15, and that everyone is not His Sheep Jn 10:26 !

This does not stand. Just because other groups are not mentioned in this passage, does not mean they are excluded if they happen to be mentioned elsewhere. If one uses that logic, one could end up saying there are some passages that teach He only died for Israel: Isaiah 58:3, Acts 13:2. Galations 2:20 - Christ only died for Paul.
This way of believing in limited atonement does not in my observation out weigh the passages which show clearly unlimited atonement.

 

[beloved57]

int

This does not stand.

Yes it does.

 

[intojoy]

Falcons are goin down baby!

 

[Rightglory]

into



If that's the case it does not say He did die for everyone !

But it did say He died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15, and that everyone is not His Sheep Jn 10:26 !

Here is another example of misusing scripture. Not only an incorrect premise, but the text you use to support limited atonement does not even mention HIS Sheep. John 10:11 is Christ dying for THE SHEEP. Same for vs 15.

Just how do you propose to make limited this text which shows Christ unlimited atonement regarding His resurrection. Acts 24:15. Or I Cor 15:12-22. Or even a text like Rom 5:18, or Col 1:20. Or John 6:39.

Rom 5:6,8 are also unlimited.

So the real myth is that Chnst did NOT DIE FOR JUST THE ELECT.

 

[beloved57]

rg

Just how do you propose to make limited this text which shows Christ unlimited atonement regarding His resurrection. Acts 24:15. Or I Cor 15:12-22. Or even a text like Rom 5:18, or Col 1:20. Or John 6:39.

Rom 5:6,8 are also unlimited.

Which of those verses say that Christ did not just die for the Elect or Sheep ?

 

[Rightglory]

rg



Which of those verses say that Christ did not just die for the Elect or Sheep ?

Do you have difficulty in understanding what I had originally stated?
Why the question?

I am saying Scripture states Christ died for the world, for mankind.
Never, does scripture ever claim that Christ ONLY died for the elect.