ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I know more about God and the plans for eternal life than all the religions of man put together. You have no idea who I am or what I know.

Satan and the beast caused all men to be deceived while they read and study the scriptures. Only God's chosen servants who hear His voice and obey all his commandments will learn the deepest knowledge of Christ which is what is needed to know the things that man cannot see.

This is not the thread for you to speak this way. Open your own thread! You are off topic and at this point... I suggest you know you are about to get theologically blasted and if that doesn't take... you will get reported for derailing a thread that was on topic with the exception of a few people who are mildly off topic!

I won't tolerate this!

Get on thread topic or prepare to get your (Is. 14:14) self leveled and reported!

Ps... I couldn't be more serious!

 

[Tambora]

Tell us how it is not a fruitcake to say we do not have to obey to be saved and to stay saved?

Ahhh, the other fruitcake chimes in with her .....

"We must obey EVERYTHING Jesus commanded."

"Jesus' words were not temporary and only to a select few. Jesus' words are forever to everyone."

In contrast to scripture:

Mark 8:30 KJV
(30) And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.​

And the same fruitcake that say the word 'repented" means 'stopped sinning'.

In contrast to scripture:

Exodus 32:14 KJV​

(14) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

You two make a cute couple to laugh at.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

In order to understand this particular scripture, you need to listen to the gospel of God that I preach to God's chosen believers. Otherwise, Satan and the beast will just make you all argue with each other until your bodies perish.

This is my FINAL WARNING. Get on thread topic or start another thread. You are aiding Satan with every word you speak. I am not going to blast you with rose scented smoke... I mean it... Read the thread from the beginning and get on topic!

Otherwise... It's going to become exceedingly difficult for you.

 

[Tambora]

I know more about God and the plans for eternal life than all the religions of man put together.

Did you arrive at that conclusion of YOURSELF in one of your fantasy dreams?

 

[meshak]

The prophecies were needed by man created in the image of God to learn who we are as ONE thing called the Tree of Life. Without the Tree of Life, we would not exist.

Revelation 2
7: He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'

All men created in the image of God will awaken in the paradise of God but with new bodies and new worlds to explore.

So that's it?

So you don't know what is all about.

thanks.

good day, friend.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is what I said and this is the same thing with which you agree:

And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.​

So you agree with me that it is a person's own sin that results in spiritual death.

That truth directly contradicts what we read in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

According to this the spiritual death experienced by Adam and Eve was conveyed to all their posterity by original generation. But now you recognize that the spiritual death of men happens because of their own sin and not because the spiritual death of Adam and Eve is conveyed to them.

At least you are beginning to see the truth that Calvinism is wrong about how spiritual death comes to men.

But where does it say men are born dead as original sin insists?

Well, if by one man's disobedience "many were made sinners" (involuntarily according to original sin), how is that by the obedience of one would many be made righteous (involuntarity - as the comparison would insist). That sounds like universal salvation to me.

Right. Adam couldn't be guilty of being created naked. He had no control of that.
And he couldn't be guilty of disobedience because there was no command or law saying his nakedness was shameful and needed to be covered.

But suddenly he has knowledge that his nakedness is shameful, even though he had no control of it and there was no command or law saying it was shameful to be naked.

Bear in mind, it is the same nakedness (that he had no part of creating) before and after he ate.
And there was no restriction to be naked.
So what made it shameful only after he ate of the tree?

No matter which word you place in there, the fact still remains that he had no knowledge his nakedness was shameful until after he ate of the tree of knowledge.

This is my only disagreement outright with you: I think it is Hebrews 6

A good study. I believe you are correct, Romans 5 is dealing with a legal death. He has been coming at the need for a Savior from all directions. His whole discussion is about our holistic need from holistic deaths. Romans 1 moral death, Romans 3 Spiritual death, Romans 8 physical death. Romans 5 is the legal sentence of death. We are holistically dead, not merely one or the other. We are born under physical curse. We are born under moral curse that is death. We are born with 'no one seeking God' and 'no one doing good' and 'no not one' to silence any argument by his own pen stroke. Romans 3:23 tells us not only all have sinned, but all men have fallen short of the glory of God. When we come to Romans 5, we are legally restricted to death as well. He is not expounding any kind of life apart from the Law. Our death is indeed holistic. -Lon

There is a difference between guilt and shame.

I don't think so.

This topic of original sin reminds me of what the Calvinists try to pull off, when they claim God saves a select few and damns the others to hell. In order to swallow the idea that God would saddle all men with ADAM'S sin, one would have to question the very righteousness and justice of God. Man would have a perfect reason for claiming he can't help being sinful. He could legitimately claim he was born a homesexual, for instance. If men are born sinners then God shouldn't expect anything from any of us. But, He does. And He's created us with everything we need to know Him built right into us. Which is why we are without excuse. Inheriting Adam's sin is about as Calvinistic as it comes.

What can we do by nature? Well, we can do the things contained in the law.

Romans 2:14KJV For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

Rather, we were fearfully and wonderfully made....I think this verse says it well.

Ec. 7:29KJV
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.​

Being warned not to touch a hot stove is not the same as actually touching it.

Jude 1:12

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

No, I'm saying rather that the Law's verdict is also death. Regarding God, it is the Spiritual Paul is concerned with because his specific audience, in this section, are that part reading this letter, that are Israel.

What kind of "death" is being referred to here in "bold"?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

That doesn't tell me what kind of "death" is spoken of here in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

If you do not want to answer that question then perhaps you can tell me what kind of "death" is spoken of in this verse:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

I see matters important in your point here and I want to bolster your point. Paul is a Jew of Jews and people forget that he was a Torah power house. To be precise... (Php. 3:5)...

One word people are forgetting... Seder... (Pass Over) ... the reference is in Paul's words... this is why I keep pointing to (Heb. 2:14)

All the elements are in this passage... but a big clue is the way "death" is referred to. I believe Paul is referring to a complexity that many don't see. In other words... the Angel of Death is revealed in Heb. 2:14 and more specifically... Rm. 5:12 nods to him, while the Lambs blood on the doorposts comes in at Romans 5:18.

I bring this up now, because it's time to go deeper into the Jewish mind here... in my opinion.

Death in general I expect: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Death in general, and that as a result of sin Romans 5:12
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No, not death in general. No one dies "physically" as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

When mankind was denied access to the tree of life it was destined that all men will die physically (Gen.3:22-24;Heb.9:27).

When men sin they die "spritually." That means that before they sin they are alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

That means that the teaching of Calvinism that Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all his descendants is nothing but a myth.

No, because "imputation" is not about "crediting" the merits of Christ's personal righteousness "to our account." It is about being forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ.

1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!…
(Psalm 32:1)

6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

The Lord does not "count" or "reckon" the sins of someone who has put their faith in Christ against them because they have been forgiven. However, this forgiveness and cleansing is ongoing
(1 John 1:7-9

There is no original sin, after the cross.

So by many he doesn't mean "plural"? Romans 5:18 tells us what he means. All are offered life, not all accept it.

Yep.

Spiritual life is much better than contemplating death. :thumb:

God has us servants confess and repent of every single sin before he empowers us with the Holy Spirit in which we will never be deceived by the deceiving images and thoughts again.

The following is information that was very valid before this jc impostor derailed this thread. I'm reposting it to assist in Jerry's topic coming back to full discussion... on thread track.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are all born spiritually dead enough, for we do NOT know God we must be taught about Him.

How can anyone die spiritually when he sins if he is already dead spiritually?

You still have not accepted the truth that before someone can die spiritually he has to first be alive spiritually!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Wouldn't making the garden off limits also include not having access to the tree of knowledge?
Both trees were in the garden.
No one could eat from either of them.

Without that access, no one else could commit the sin of eating from the tree as Adam & Eve did.


Romans 5:14 KJV
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The following is information that was very valid before this jc impostor derailed this thread. I'm reposting it to assist in Jerry's topic coming back to full discussion... on thread track.

Thanks!

 

[Tambora]

In order to understand this particular scripture, you need to listen to the gospel of God that I preach to God's chosen believers. Otherwise, Satan and the beast will just make you all argue with each other until your bodies perish.

You are one sure fire looney tune, that's for sure!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You should apologize to the one who started this thread for going off topic. This is not a thread to criticize the servant of God in. Go to the thread called, "Questions for God". I will be there waiting for any question from you.

[MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] [MENTION=8212]Grandma Lucy[/MENTION]

This individual is intentionally derailing this thread that has had over 40 participants in some fashion for several days now, of [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] 's.

They have been addressed and warned. Many theologies of diverse difference are peacefully discussing this matter. Even [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION] are contributing in a positive fashion.

If this [MENTION=19820]jcforever[/MENTION] person could be blocked from this thread for thread derailment ... it would be deeply appreciated.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Thanks!

We were all discussing the impact of the fall in Eden and it's impact, in light of Romans 5:12-18 ...

What are some challenging questions that you see we should ponder at this point in your thread Jerry?

 

[glorydaz]

There is no original sin, after the cross.

So you don't believe anyone is born saddled with Adam's sin since the Lord went to the cross? It no longer applies?

 

[Tambora]

You should apologize to the one who started this thread for going off topic. This is not a thread to criticize the servant of God in. Go to the thread called, "Questions for God". I will be there waiting for any question from you.

This this is right up your alley.
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?67763-The-Late-Great-Urantia-Revelation&highlight=urantia

 

[Right Divider]

Didn't you get the MESSAGE in your mind??

:french:

 

[glorydaz]

So by many he doesn't mean "plural"? Romans 5:18 tells us what he means. All are offered life, not all accept it.

Still, this verse seems very clear. Many (not all) were made sinners, and many (not all) shall be made righteous.

Romans 5:19KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So you don't believe anyone is born saddled with Adam's sin since the Lord went to the cross? It no longer applies?

I look forward to [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] 's response....

I am beginning to see the scriptural support for the answer to your excellent question in several points.

1 The individual that is genuinely guilty of the original sin is here... (Gen. 3:15) ... This sin correlates to "unbelief" ... and is fully addressed in Divine response ... here.. (John 16:9-11)

9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.​

This would elude that this "sin" of the "world" was fully dealt with here... (John 19:30)

2 The state of Adam and Eves childlike innocence is recognized by God and though it is dealt with by assigning the curse of physical death to us here... (Gen. 3:17, 18, 19) and it's power... (Heb. 2:14; 1 Cor. 15:55f)... to the serpent here... (Gen. 3:14, 15f) ... we can see the solution within (Gen. 3:15) ... which ties to ... (Eph. 1:4). In other words... God had an architectural plan that was already in place for this very occurrence.

3 "Spiritual Death" is described here as an "Opening" of "Carnal" eyes... (Gen. 3:7) ... and it is fairly obvious that one has to be "Spiritually Alive" to become Spiritually Dead. This is a reoccurring point of Jerry's that is enormously valid and ties to many scriptures that insinuate such.

4 [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] quoted the "twice" dead verse, and it seems relevant here. A person becomes Spiritually Dead/Blind upon accountability to the (Knowledge of Good and Evil) via transgression and experiential guilt, which then begins to lead them to their need of the provision of Jesus (Romans 5:18)... it would seem that if a person perceives the Provision of Jesus, but rejects it... they are "searing their conscience" to their need for Jesus. (1 Tim. 4:2) ... this would be the equivalent of dying as Jerry is insinuating then fully rejecting Jesus upon knowledge of Him to the day of physical death. I don't claim to know much about this... but it seems to fall into place here... though it is essentially baggage in relationship to this topic.

5 The direct response to your excellent question, from my perspective is... we all partake of unbelief and experience "Spiritual Death/Blindness" upon our first transgression of "conscience" in life. This actually opens up a bunch of incredible dialogue possibility and sheds further support on why we must proclaim the gospel without attaching carnal requirement to Jesus' provision.

 

[glorydaz]

Not only did Adam not have knowledge that his nakedness was shameful, but he didn't even know he was naked.


Genesis 3:9-11 KJV
(9) And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
(10) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
(11) And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Yeah, and what do you make of that? If eating the fruit awakened his conscience that would explain it, wouldn't it? Or, possibly, it was the guilt he felt for disobeying God that "spread" through him. I know when I first experienced guilt, I felt it throughout my being. I felt the eyes of God upon me.

 

[Shasta]

[Nang;4976995]I believe you are defining "Justification" which is the basis for the legal "Imputation" of Christ's righteousness.

It is true that Christ had to be perfectly righteous to become the sacrifice for sin and that it is through believing in Him that we are cleansed and made righteous. Nevertheless "justification" is not the result of God "imputing" the merits of Christ's righteous life "to our account." It is through being forgiven that we are cleansed from unrighteousness and restored to right standing with God.

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

We are able to receive this forgiveness by believing in Christ rather than through works of the Law. When the Lord forgives us He does not "count" our sins against us. That is what forgiveness means.

While the natural consequences of the Fall necessarily affect us God does not hold one person liable for the sins of an ancestor.

32"But now, if You will, forgive their sin-- and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" 33 The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.…
(Exodus 32:32-33)

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son
(Ezekiel 18:20)

God judges people for their own sins not for the sins of their ancestors. As I said before Augustine's idea of "Original Sin" (which was that all men sinned in Adam) came from reading a mistranslation of Romans 5:12 in the Latin Vulgate. Actually the verse says "death passed to all men" and "because all sin"

They are connected through cause and effect.

Only because of Christ's perfect obedience unto death, are souls justified (pardoned) of their sins. Romans 5:9

If a person is pardoned there is no need to "impute," or "transfer" the righteousness of Christ "to his account.

As a result of this offering for sin, God has legal basis for attributing (imputing) righteousness to the justified sinner. Romans 5:19

The passage of Romans 5:12-21 is teaching both.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

All this verse says is that sin entered the world through Adam. It does not say the his guilt was "imputed" to us individually because he was our "federal representative." If he was our "federal representative" who gave him that office and when was it given? Even more important where does the scripture say so? It is an important question since if he had NOT been then the legal culpability for his crime would not have been imputed to us.

As to the multigenerational transmission of the sin nature, I think you are caught between two contradictory explanations. One is the forensic model of imputation. Then you bring up traducianism which ties this transfer to organic descent. Well, if you believe in legal imputation, traducianism is unnecessary. It is more compatible with traducianism to say that a non-living human spirit (spiritual death) was passed on and that sin came out of that.

Yes, here is evidence of the two doctrines.

Yes, again the two truths are revealed to be in conjunction.

It is my belief that Justification is a one-time event. Christ only died once on the cross to pardon our sins.

However, the Sanctification that comes from being attributed with Christ's righteousness, is an ongoing process of successfully conforming to His image of holiness.

Justification = Forgiveness = Once for all
Sanctification = Holy Living = Continuous

Result: A permanent salvation that cannot be undone.

1 John 1:7-9 says that cleansing, forgiveness as well as being made righteous (by the removal of unrighteousness) are an ongoing process not a one-time event. The verbs used here are in the present tense which denotes action that is durative, repetitive, or continuous. These are not one-time events. The meaning of this passage verse does not agree with your belief.

 

[Right Divider]

1 John 1:7-9 says that cleansing, forgiveness as well as being made righteous (by the removal of unrighteousness) are an ongoing process not a one-time event. The verbs used here are in the present which denotes action that is durative, repetitive, or continuous action. They do not denote not single actions. The meaning of the verse does not agree with your belief.

This is the sort of confusion you get from mixing law and grace.