ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Right Divider]

I am not mixing anything. I am just interpreting scripture. 1 John was written in the last decade of the First Century when the Church was full of Gentiles. According to the Apostolic fathers John had moved to Ephesus to take care of the Church there since Paul had been dead for more than thirty years. He does not deal with issues surrounding Judaism (e.g., performing works of the law) but with the Gnostic cult. His writings are directed to all believers.

Your confusion is complete.

John was one of the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Why do you so easily prefer man-made history to Christ's own explanation in the Word of God?

Paul passed on his role to Timothy and not John.

John was one of those that made an agreement with Paul to limit their ministry to the circumcision. Peter going to Cornelius was by special revelation and was not the norm.

Paul says that when we believe we are saved and sealed. It's not rocket surgery.

Eph 1:10-14 (KJV)​

(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: (1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (1:12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (1:13) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (1:14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
​

But you think that God will possibly revoke the earnest of our inheritance. You need to get saved.

 

[God's Truth]

I wouldn't want to ask any more questions at this point. Instead, I would like to see an intelligent answer from some of those who oppose my view to the question of what kind of "death" is spoken of in the following verse in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Those who insist that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all of his descendants invariably point to the verses at Romans 5:12-20 to try to prove that they are right. But I have yet to see even one of them deal with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner.

Can you think of anyway to prod these people into actually dealing with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner?

Thanks!

There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and another tree, the tree of life.

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God prevented them from eating from the tree of life and living forever.

Because of Adam and Eve we were sent out of the body of Christ, which is about what is spiritual. We also die physically because God did not want to contend with man and his sinful ways.

 

[glorydaz]

1 The individual that is genuinely guilty of the original sin is here... (Gen. 3:15) ... This sin correlates to "unbelief" ... and is fully addressed in Divine response ... here.. (John 16:9-11)

So Adam's sin was not that he ate the fruit, but that he didn't believe God? I guess that's the basis of all sin, isn't it?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

When you judge without authority, you will be judged accordingly.

You have been reported... You are no longer welcome here. Thank you

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That's because the Great God of Love and Righteousness is busy forming spiritually dead babies to come into this world of sin so they can live depraved lives. :jump:

James 4:5
states, "Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I wouldn't want to ask any more questions at this point. Instead, I would like to see an intelligent answer from some of those who oppose my view to the question of what kind of "death" is spoken of in the following verse in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Those who insist that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all of his descendants invariably point to the verses at Romans 5:12-20 to try to prove that they are right. But I have yet to see even one of them deal with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner.

Can you think of anyway to prod these people into actually dealing with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner?

Thanks!

I have a scriptural work up... and Jerry ... I'll quote it here, and then break it up and make questions out of it over the next few days... if you approve of it.

Quote to come....

I understand your point Glory days... but Romans 7 suggests other wise. More specifically... if the "knowledge of good and evil" is "sin"... then this would be suggesting that God beholds (Sin)... (Gen. 3:22)..

I will add Romans 7 and try to explain my counter perspective to this idea.

First ... The key to this idea...

1 Cor. 15:55f... and Heb. 2:14

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

It is obvious that the serpent is being addressed here, per Heb. 2:14 ... Note the order of damage...

The serpent bite of "Death" is SIN (Transgression of the Law ... or on Adams account... Unbelief in God's Provision and Truth) ... The next point is that the Power of Sin is The Law. We know that the Law is good... and we further know that God is Good by the Law. It represents His perfection that we can never obtain, because within it are matters that come directly from being God. The Kingship of Israel for instance.

In other words... the serpent imputed the Law (perfection of God) upon mankind ... through spreading his unbelief and desire to be like God (Is. 14:14 and Gen. 3:5) ...

This afforded the serpent to condemn us by God's Self standards of "Perfection" and resultingly empowered the serpent with the office of false and self appointed judge, accuser and Death. We all fall short of the Flesh/Glory of God... Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:3)

Now... going into Romans 7 ... we can now see the following...

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.​

Here we see that the Law... or fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not Evil. We see that it is good in that it shows us our "Missing the Mark of God"... (Sin/Imperfection when compared to God) ... think of this statement... (Mk. 10:18 and this 2 Cor. 5:21)

So.. now we need to see if there is DNA of scripture to link this to the tree.

For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”​

He we see the connection to "Coveting". This binds to (Gen. 3:5 and Is. 14:14) ... we coveted the authority and wisdom of God by the inception of temptation by a malevolent force.

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.​

Now... we see that Sin... which is the sting of the Serpent... afforded by imputing the carnal pursuit of trying to "Be Like God" upon us through deceit... is the very knowledge of our NEED for God... though the serpent is using it to attempt to separate us from "belief" in our all Loving Provider, through SHAME... Note God's immediate response to our choice and resulting shame... (Gen. 3:21 ... this is symbolic of Gal. 3:7 and imputed righteousness of God... as you well know)

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​

Here we see a duel reference to individual human birth and the Eden account. We see that the knowledge of (Perfection of God and Wisdom of Good and Evil) God... slays us Spiritually and renders us carnally focused on our inability to measure up to God. This divides us from God and gives us two possible responses...

1) We try to (Is. 14:14)
2) We claim Eph. 2:8f and John 5:39f

10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.​

Here we see how the serpent used the very perfection of God against God and deceived us to question God's goodness and utter, Loving Provision. The Spirit's perfection that brings Life by the will of the Spirit (God TriUne), became a tool that the "adversary" utilized to separate us from our Creator. In this... knowledge of God's Perfection (Law) brought about death in our very members on many levels.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.​

Commandment... Law... God's Perfection (Mk. 10:18) ... Here we see that key tie in that I addressed with Corinthians and Hebrews. The Serpent used God's Perfection (Law) to deceive us into Sin.... And the wages of unbelief in God's utter provision and our focus on how we "should be like God"... which is the first lie... (Gen. 3:5; Is. 14:14) in conjunction with "you shall not surely die"... was utilized to bring about our disconnection from our Life Giving Spirit! (John 14:6) ... IOW ... we took our eyes off of God and put them on ourselves... (Gen. 3:7)

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.​

This is why I say the Tree is good and it's fruit is good... but only to God... (Mk. 10:18)

wphewwww....

done... [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] ... you don't have to... but please give this a read and tell me what you think... [MENTION=17501]ok doser[/MENTION] ... feel free to provide some of that J.H. feedback. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Why are you so confused? Don't you know that everything was made through the body of Christ? Don't you know we are reconciled to God through Jesus' body? Don't you understand that reconciled means we go back in Christ?

Well, it's pretty simple, actually. You said Adam and Eve were kicked out of the body of Christ, and I know believers are created in Christ and can't be kicked out. So, I'm not "confused", I'm "sickened" by what you write.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The Bible also says we must continue in the faith and persevere.

In admission of our need for Jesus. We count our flesh absolute loss. Paul affirmed so by the very coaxing of Jesus. It's in my signature scripture... We boast in our weakness that the power of Him may rest upon us.

 

[glorydaz]

James 4:5
states, "Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

So, your point is?

 

[God's Truth]

Well, it's pretty simple, actually. You said Adam and Eve were kicked out of the body of Christ, and I know believers are created in Christ and can't be kicked out. So, I'm not "confused", I'm "sickened" by what you write.

Wow, relax, you are in a debate site and will hear beliefs different from your own. Maybe you make others sick? Why talk like that?

All that was ever made was made through Jesus. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were thrown out and now we have the chance through Jesus' body to be reconciled back.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

People are not born with spiritual life otherwise they would not need to be born again after the Spirit.

That's right.

 

[Tambora]

Yeah, and what do you make of that? If eating the fruit awakened his conscience that would explain it, wouldn't it? Or, possibly, it was the guilt he felt for disobeying God that "spread" through him. I know when I first experienced guilt, I felt it throughout my being. I felt the eyes of God upon me.

Perhaps.

I tend to not want to add much speculation because one could come up with a dozen or more speculative reasons.
I'n not against speculation, but it must remain speculation and forced to fit.
I feel confident that you feel the same.

So I'm gonna stick with Adam didn't have knowledge he was naked or that nakedness was shameful.
He got that knowledge when he ate the fruit.

And I think the premise of the analogy Paul uses fits.

Romans 7:9 KJV
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

For Paul had just told us that he had no knowledge that his lust was lust until the law gave him the knowledge that coveting was sin in verse 7.

And since one cannot know they are a sinner unless they know what sin is, then they can't feel guilty or shame and seek forgiveness.


So as far as I can tell, you and I are pretty much on the same page.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So Adam's sin was not that he ate the fruit, but that he didn't believe God? I guess that's the basis of all sin, isn't it?

Adam's sin was different than Eves... Eve sinned the moment she was deceived into disbelieving God. There is your initial entry of deceit into human... spiritual logic.

When Eve partook of the fruit... she sealed her fate to creation, instead of her Creator. Adam is clearly upset when he discovers what Eve has done and was most likely away from Eve... but when he shows up... He takes the fruit. It is only implied why he blatantly "disobeyed" as the verse Nick M. brought up... but I believe he is a typification of Jesus in this, that Adam would have rather died then have lived without his "Bride".

It was a transgression that Adam ate... but the full burden rests on the deceiver... We can see this by God doling out consequences...

The serpent is destined to have it's head crushed!
Eve is going to be "saved through birth pains"
Adam is cursed to return to dust and toil the soil.

This is what I am implying...

I further state that is merely my perspective... but I am thoroughly enjoying this incredible dialogue!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Bible also says we must continue in the faith and persevere.

Paul knew that it was the LORD who would do the preserving:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingom: to whom be glory for ever and ever" (2 Tim.4:18).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

So, your point is?

Maybe a little less MAD doctrine in your thinkin'.

James wont bite you.

 

[God's Truth]

Maybe a little less MAD doctrine in your thinkin'.

James wont bite you.

Exactly; how does one think that something is Spirit and life for one race of people but not for another?

Jesus says his words are Spirit and life.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul knew that it was the LORD who would do the preserving:

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingom: to whom be glory for ever and ever" (2 Tim.4:18).​

That is because he CHOOSES to persevere by obeying Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

You have been reported... You are no longer welcome here. Thank you

You don't speak for everyone.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

People are not born with spiritual life otherwise they would not need to be born again after the Spirit.

A person becames spiritually dead as a result of his own sin (Ro.5:12). And in order to die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. That means no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

 

[intojoy]

A person becames spiritually dead as a result of his own sin (Ro.5:12). And in order to die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. That means no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

GOBLYGOOK


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