The Most Dangerous Teaching

[glorydaz]

That letter was written after his journeys to people who had been converted by being water baptized, some possibly by him. Just as Jesus instructed.

His gospel was the same as Peters and he baptized believers just like Peter.

Nope, being quickened happens the moment of salvation, as does that entire operation of God (including our being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. In much the same way, the children of Israel were baptized unto Moses upon leaving Egypt.


Try reading it again without your preconceptions. That baptism you see there is performed by the Spirit upon our believing the Gospel. No one need be present but the believer and God.

 

[turbosixx]

Nope, being quickened happens the moment of salvation, as does that entire operation of God (including our being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. In much the same way, the children of Israel were baptized unto Moses upon leaving Egypt.


Try reading it again without your preconceptions. That baptism you see there is performed by the Spirit upon our believing the Gospel. No one need be present but the believer and God.

If that's the case, why did Paul still have his sins before he washed them away in baptism, Acts 22:16?


Why did Paul have to baptize these men in the name of Jesus before he gave them the Holy Spirit even though they were believers?
Acts 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Notice that last verse, the exact same thing Peter did to believers.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Just as Jesus instructed on how to make Christians.

 

[turbosixx]

Try reading it again without your preconceptions.

I say the same thing back atcha. I suggest you're basing spirit baptism off of one single verse. Even though there are verses that prove otherwise.


Try to see it from by perspective. I suggest this is what that verse is saying.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Who were added in this verse? Those who were baptized and who were baptized, those who believed the word. You see, the Spirit added them when they believed and were baptized.

 

[Right Divider]

I say the same thing back atcha. I suggest you're basing spirit baptism off of one single verse. Even though there are verses that prove otherwise.

• How many verses does it take? One clear verse is enough and that verse is plenty clear.
• No, there are not other verses that prove otherwise, UNLESS you go to epistles other than Paul's.

Try to see it from by perspective. I suggest this is what that verse is saying.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Who were added in this verse? Those who were baptized and who were baptized, those who believed the word. You see, the Spirit added them when they believed and were baptized.

Added them to WHAT? The church.... WHICH church?

Oh, you probably believe that there's only one "church" too.

 

[Danoh]

I would suggest you're seeing what you want to see.
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Paul says nothing of being dry because that isn't his point.

Where the Corinthians dry here?
1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Though she often proves has she reads things into a thing, other times she actually does read the right thing into a thing.

Hers being the school of hit or miss that is the fake "holiness / led" movement she obviously holds to.

But this time, some of her throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks, got the thing right.

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea UPON THE DRY GROUND: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Which, along with other relevant passages, indicates the phrase "were baptized unto Moses" is referring to an idea, concept, principle, or understanding other than that of the water ritual (water baptism).

The idea being that they were identified WITH Moses AS the people OF God in the sight of all those nations who heard of that absolutely astounding parting of that Red Sea.

Exodus 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The idea being that of other passages in Scripture on this Identity issue - as in at the end of Romans 2 or say, in Hebrews 3 - their having failed to walk IN that Identity in the sight of the Nations.

Their great failure now serving as an ensample and an admonition to those baptized / Identified WITH - Christ BY the Spirit.

Your failure is that you haven't bothered to study out the baptism issue in the whole of Scripture. Nor properly.

So, as with GD and her kind (MADs or not), you leave yourself at the mercy of your version of their often hit or miss approach.

In contrast to turning to Google and or to endless books "about" and or to guessing at a thing, is the sound approach that is...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

You'll note none of the passages I cited actually mention the word baptism.

Because at least within an actually consistent Acts 9 Dispensationalism, the real core of an issue is in the studying out of similarity of themes - not so much in the study of a similar word here and there.

And baptism is actually the issue of so identifying a thing with something else that they become one.

See if this very principle is not exactly the principle throughout, say, Romans 6, for example.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It's either 100% grace or else you're not going to get saved.

You really do not understand grace.

It is the "faith alone" people that really do not understand grace is God showing that He is pleased with someone and condemnation is God showing He is not pleased with someone.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Grace is unearned, unmerited.

The idea that grace is unearned and unmerited is a lie from the devil to cause believers to fall from grace.

 

[DAN P]

The idea that grace is unearned and unmerited is a lie from the devil to cause believers to fall from grace.

Hi and let's have verse for PROOF ??

dan p

 

[genuineoriginal]

Hi and let's have verse for PROOF ??

dan p

Genesis 4:7 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

 

[musterion]

The idea that grace is unearned and unmerited is a lie from the devil to cause believers to fall from grace.

Fallen from grace =/= fallen from Christ.

Good job turning grace into law, lost one.

 

[marhig]

Stop living as we please? :think:

Are you saying those who have believed unto righteousness have any desire whatsoever to please themselves? That those who have believed unto righteousness have any desire to put themselves first?

You're wrong. That you still have such lusts and desires just shows you have not been created a new creature in Christ Jesus.



The trouble with those like you is they don't know the power of God, and have never experienced what it means to be hid with Christ in God....you have no confidence in God performing His work in us.



And all is done by the grace of God you say? Except for all that stuff in yellow you claim to do yourself. :chuckle:



But you try and try and try. Your faith is in yourself.

What?? Everyone has lusts and desires, that is what the flesh is! They are what we are to overcome through Christ, the lusts of the flesh are to be put to death in us, but it doesn't happen all at once, we overcome them and we see the sin by the power of the Spirit, sin doesn't just stop once we believe, each one has to be put to death, and as the spirit shows us our sin, we are to deny it and Christ by the Spirit helps us to overcome, strengthening us through faith by God's grace. Every day of our life we are tempted, and at times we do sin. Hopefully not wilfully. John said that If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

I am a new creature in Christ, I'm completely changed from what I was, but as long as I'm in this flesh I will be tempted, but now God has opened my eyes and I can see sin and see temptation and he strengthens me to overcome. But as I said I do sin, hopefully not wilfully and when I realise that I have, I go to God for forgiveness and try and put it right if I can. I'm not perfect, and we all sin, the only perfect one was Christ Jesus, he spotted satan a mile off and denied him completely and never sinned. And the more we obey God and turn from the world and live by God's will, the more we are strengthened in Christ and the stronger we become in God, and through Christ we will see more and more of when we are being tempted by satan in our own hearts and through others and we will have the power to overcome the flesh through Christ by the grace of God.

Those who belong to Christ are tried by fire but they are not burned, and the trials strengthen us in God.

 

[turbosixx]

[*]No, there are not other verses that prove otherwise, UNLESS you go to epistles other than Paul's.

One is enough if there are not scripture that disprove it.
No one is converted in the epistles of Paul. Those letters are to people who have already been converted. Already heard the gospel and were (water) baptized.

The conversion of those in Acts 19 doesn't agree with "spirit baptism". If the spirit does the baptizing at belief, why did Paul need to baptize them IN THE NAME OF Jesus before he gave them gifts of the Holy Spirit? Why not just give them the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Added them to WHAT? The church.... WHICH church?

Oh, you probably believe that there's only one "church" too.

There is only one church. Please explain why the church in early Acts isn't the body.

 

[turbosixx]

Though she often proves has she reads things into a thing, other times she actually does read the right thing into a thing.

Hers being the school of hit or miss that is the fake "holiness / led" movement she obviously holds to.

But this time, some of her throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks, got the thing right.

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea UPON THE DRY GROUND: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Which, along with other relevant passages, indicates the phrase "were baptized unto Moses" is referring to an idea, concept, principle, or understanding other than that of the water ritual (water baptism).

The idea being that they were identified WITH Moses AS the people OF God in the sight of all those nations who heard of that absolutely astounding parting of that Red Sea.

Exodus 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The idea being that of other passages in Scripture on this Identity issue - as in at the end of Romans 2 or say, in Hebrews 3 - their having failed to walk IN that Identity in the sight of the Nations.

Their great failure now serving as an ensample and an admonition to those baptized / Identified WITH - Christ BY the Spirit.

Your failure is that you haven't bothered to study out the baptism issue in the whole of Scripture. Nor properly.

So, as with GD and her kind (MADs or not), you leave yourself at the mercy of your version of their often hit or miss approach.

In contrast to turning to Google and or to endless books "about" and or to guessing at a thing, is the sound approach that is...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

You'll note none of the passages I cited actually mention the word baptism.

Because at least within an actually consistent Acts 9 Dispensationalism, the real core of an issue is in the studying out of similarity of themes - not so much in the study of a similar word here and there.

And baptism is actually the issue of so identifying a thing with something else that they become one.

See if this very principle is not exactly the principle throughout, say, Romans 6, for example.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

Once again we can't believe what it says because that's too simple. It takes someone who has studied hard to figure out all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; doesn't mean completely covered by water. Then when he says they were baptized IN the cloud and IN the sea, that means there was no water involved just like when they themselves were baptized into Christ, no water.

So the Corinthians were dry baptized without water?
1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.

 

[turbosixx]

[*]How many verses does it take? One clear verse is enough and that verse is plenty clear.

When the Corinthians converted and baptized, was it in water?

 

[Right Divider]

One is enough if there are not scripture that disprove it.
No one is converted in the epistles of Paul. Those letters are to people who have already been converted. Already heard the gospel and were (water) baptized.

You are just completely obsessed with the water ceremony for Israel and their priesthood.

In all of his epistles, Paul never once commands that believers should get wet. If it were necessary or even very important, that would be a glaring omission from someone that wrote THIRTEEN epistles in the Bible.

The conversion of those in Acts 19 doesn't agree with "spirit baptism".

That is because those believers are under the OLD program and not a part of the ONE NEW MAN, the body of Christ. The body of Christ is NOT continuation of Israel but a NEW thing.

If the spirit does the baptizing at belief, why did Paul need to baptize them IN THE NAME OF Jesus before he gave them gifts of the Holy Spirit? Why not just give them the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I do not believe that Paul water baptized them at all. They had already been water baptized by John the B.

The believers in Israel prior to the beginning of the body of Christ with Paul had a different calling. This is the reason that you cannot show anywhere in Act 1-8 where Peter preached the cross as good news. Peter was preaching the prophetic fulfillment of Christ's kingdom on earth.

There is only one church. Please explain why the church in early Acts isn't the body.

The church in early Acts was part of what God was doing on the earth to and through Israel. The body of Christ is different with a heavenly calling and seated in heavenly places. Once again, your inability to discern the difference is your problem.

Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

​

Matt 19:28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(19:28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ​

​

Col 3:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

​

Eph 2:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: (2:7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


​

​

 

[Right Divider]

When the Corinthians converted and baptized, was it in water?

Many of the Corinthians were Jews/Isrealites. You must remember that Paul was frequently writing to a mixed audience in some of his epistles.

 

[turbosixx]

Many of the Corinthians were Jews/Isrealites. You must remember that Paul was frequently writing to a mixed audience in some of his epistles.

If Paul was not sent to baptize and baptism isn't part of the "grace" gospel, then he wasn't being true to the gospel.

Circumcision isn't part of the gospel. We don't see him circumcising believers, with one except, so the Jews would listen to the gospel instead of focusing on Timothy not being circumcised.
When people are trying to add circumcision to the gospel, we see Paul stand strong against it saying "so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you". We never see him take this stand against baptism. Instead he performs it and not only to Jews. I don't believe Lydia nor the jailer were Jews.

 

[turbosixx]

In all of his epistles, Paul never once commands that believers should get wet.

You overlook the fact that he wrote them to CHRISTIANS who have been and don't need to be baptized.

I do not believe that Paul water baptized them at all. They had already been water baptized by John the B.

Then what does it mean to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Doesn't that look like this?
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Peter was preaching the prophetic fulfillment of Christ's kingdom on earth.

Why was Paul preaching the kingdom?

The church in early Acts was part of what God was doing on the earth to and through Israel. The body of Christ is different with a heavenly calling and seated in heavenly places.

The people added in the early church were added the same way as Paul added people to the body, preaching the same message as Peter, Acts 2/13.

 

[Right Divider]

If Paul was not sent to baptize and baptism isn't part of the "grace" gospel, then he wasn't being true to the gospel.

Paul is true to ALL of the gospels.

Circumcision isn't part of the gospel. We don't see him circumcising believers, with one except, so the Jews would listen to the gospel instead of focusing on Timothy not being circumcised.
When people are trying to add circumcision to the gospel, we see Paul stand strong against it saying "so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you". We never see him take this stand against baptism. Instead he performs it and not only to Jews. I don't believe Lydia nor the jailer were Jews.

Paul also took a vow in Acts 21 and performed purification rites under the law.

Acts 21:26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(21:26) Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. ​

Lydia was already a worshiper of God who was praying on the sabbath day. Not a good example of a pagan gentile.

The Bible does not say one way or the other on the jailer, so we should not use that to speculate.

 

[Right Divider]

You overlook the fact that he wrote them to CHRISTIANS who have been and don't need to be baptized.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but the first believers called Christians were not even those in Jerusalem that followed the Lord for years. It was those in Antioch.

Then what does it mean to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Doesn't that look like this?
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

It's not the ONE baptism into the BODY.

Why was Cornelius' family "out of order"? In early Acts it was water baptism FIRST and receiving the Holy Ghost after that. Something different was going on in Acts 10.

Why was Paul preaching the kingdom?

Because it's truth.

The people added in the early church were added the same way as Paul added people to the body, preaching the same message as Peter, Acts 2/13.

Nope.

ONCE AGAIN.... why will you not show where Peter preached the cross as good news in Acts 1-8? One gospel, remember?