turbosixx
New member
In this case, obey.
The Most Dangerous Teaching
- Thread starter vegascowboy
- Start date
In this case, obey.
Right Divider
Body part
No, it is NOT just a "mental understanding".
Rom 4:3 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Abraham was counted righteous by faith, before he did anything. Paul makes that clear throughout Romans 4.
Yep, that's why they tremble.
turbosixx
New member
It is my understanding Paul is talking about the law of Moses in Romans. In chapter 4 he is using Abraham to prove that righteous doesn't come by following the law of Moses.
He tells them apart from works of the law in the previous chapter. He is talking about a specific set of works.
3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Right Divider
Body part
That's true, but Abraham was before the law. It was about justification by FAITH and nothing else.
How could Abraham even attempt to be justified by the law that did not exist?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When Paul spoke of "the law" he was speaking of the Mosaic Covenant. When he spoke of "law" (without the definite article) in some instances he was referring to both "the law" and the law written in the heart of which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:15). In other instances it is just referring to the law written in the heart.
John F. Walvoord, the second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, discusses the presence or the absence of the definite article before the Greek noun translated "law":
"It is obvious that there must be some meaning to the use of the article or its absence, particularly when we observe careful distinction often in the same verse of Scripture. It is the writer's contention that the article when used has some significance, and when it is not used there must be some reason for its absence. He (Paul) therefore concludes in 3:20 that 'by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified.' As the 'law' includes both Jews and Gentiles in this summary, it is clear that it has the general meaning of any moral law" [emphasis added] (Walvoord, "Law in the Epistle to the Romans," Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan., 1937, [Vol. 94, #373], 17,21).
As Walvoord says, at Romans 3:20 the word "law" applies to both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore, any translation which renders the passage as "the law" is in error because the Gentiles were never given "the law" (Ro.2:14). The correct translation is "law," and in this case "law" includes both those who are under "the law" as well as those who have the law written on their hearts, that law to which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:15).
You will have to check the Greek to see if there is a definite article ('the') in the original Greek or not because many translations of the Bible add an "the" when it shouln't be added.
turbosixx
New member
Yes, it's my understanding that is Paul's point. Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised and before the law. I don't believe his point is faith and NO works but faith without "works of the law". That's his whole point in the first part of Romans.
3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Not works in Christ but works of the law.
Right Divider
Body part
I don't know what you're trying to say here.
turbosixx
New member
It's referring to the law of Moses. Look at the prior verse, he says they do what the law requires which makes them a law to themselves.
Rom. 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Paul does not contrast three laws in Romans but two.
3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
In 1 Corinthians 9,the same thing,the law of Moses and the law of Christ.
turbosixx
New member
My point is Paul is not saying we are justified WITHOUT any works but without works of the law, being the law of Moses.
3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
To prove his point, he uses Abraham as proof because he was justified by faith before circumcision and the law.
Hope that makes more sense.
Right Divider
Body part
So you're adding works to grace. I can see your problem....
It's either 100% grace or else you're not going to get saved.
Rom 4:4-8 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (4:6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (4:7) [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (4:8) Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Do you really think that this refers to "works of the law"?
You really do not understand grace.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
marhig
Well-known member
Once saved always saved. That nothing you can do can make you lose your salvation, including wilfully sinning. Which isn't the truth.
Last edited:
marhig
Well-known member
Where does it say that in the Bible? Thanks
musterion
Well-known member
Jehovah's Witnesses, like Catholics and many other unsaved people, have no business arguing against something they don't even understand.
1. All sins are done willfully. The fact that God will justly punish all unforgiven sins is proof this is so.
2. Eternal security in Christ true because those who are in Christ are not just forgiven all sins (Col 2:13)...
3. ...they have also been JUSTIFIED by God and now have the very righteousness of Christ which, like the complete forgiveness, cannot be lost because...
4. ...they have also been declared DEAD, in their co-death with Christ, to the condemnation of all Law, God's only means of condemnation, AND to the sin yet dwelling in their own flesh.
That's what one receives in Christ: complete forgiveness of all sins by His cross; complete justification in Him, and raising to new life as a new creation after being declared dead with Him. God covered ALL bases, making the saved believer once saved, always saved.
You, of course, will ignore all this because you hate the idea of anyone being 100% positive of salvation. So you will post something, probably out of Israel's law program, to try to negate it. But you can't.
turbosixx
New member
It's absolutely works of the law. Chapter after chapter the first part of Romans is dealing with the law of Moses and law of faith.
I do understand grace.
turbosixx
New member
I agree with that verse 100%. It say not by works which assumes we have works and it doesn't say without them. Faith alone is dead.
Faith alone could not save anyone from the grave UNLESS a perfect spotless sacrifice could be offered to free you from the grave.
1 Corinthians 15:16-18 KJV
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If Christ (that one and only perfect sacrifice - the one and only sinless man) was not resurrected from the grave then no one is resurrected from the grave, and your faith dead in the water without it.
It was not any of your own righteousness that could free you from the grave because you did not have a spotless and sinless record.
So the works you are seeking for to free you are not the works of yourself (which are imperfect with blemishes), but the works of Christ only (which are perfect and without blemish).