The Most Dangerous Teaching

[Tambora]

Wait...GT has been cast off?

:cigar:

Coming back to this thread now is a bit like stepping out of your underground shelter after a mighty cyclone has blown through. Assess the damage, check to see if you've smashed any witches, and move on to more important and relevant discussions.

It may take the air a bit to clear of the Parfum Eau de Earn-Your-Own-Salvation that lays thick upon the land.

:rotfl:

 

[Interplanner]

What is the single most dangerous doctrine or teaching today for believers?

Look lively, people.

:readthis:

Why thank a person before the question like this is answered?

 

[Interplanner]

Then repeat after me:

"I am forgiven all sins, saved and safe in Christ now and for all eternity. Nothing Satan, the world or I can do can ever change my justified position in Him."

God does not justify anyone from their sins who does not think they need it.

The Christian message of motivation is not that you have a position. It is that God who loved us gave himself up for us. That is what energizes us to similar sacrifice.

 

[turbosixx]

How do you suppose that those that KNOW NOT GOD can "obey" THE GOSPEL?

I don't see how those who do not know God can "obey" the gospel but that verse has another category of people, those who do not obey the gospel. I assume they have heard it.

What GOSPEL is being spoken of here?

The same one as THIS:

Rom 5:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. ​

Agreed.

GRACE is not gained by performance of any kind of works of obedience of the individual believer other than believing God as Abraham did.

From your perspective, what are the steps one msut take to go from being lost to being added to the body?

 

[Right Divider]

I don't see how those who do not know God can "obey" the gospel but that verse has another category of people, those who do not obey the gospel. I assume they have heard it.

Agreed.

From your perspective, what are the steps one msut take to go from being lost to being added to the body?

Per scripture, believe the gospel.

​

Eph 1:13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:13) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
​

Rom 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. ​

You and many others keep trying to conflate God's prophecy program to and through Israel with the mystery of the body of Christ. That is where the confusion comes from.

 

[turbosixx]

Per scripture, believe the gospel.

​

Eph 1:13 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:13) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
​

Rom 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. ​

You and many others keep trying to conflate God's prophecy program to and through Israel with the mystery of the body of Christ. That is where the confusion comes from.

I just want to be sure I understand your point of view. Once the light comes on in ones mind of the truth of the gospel they are added to the body. Nothing further?

 

[Right Divider]

I just want to be sure I understand your point of view. Once the light comes on in ones mind of the truth of the gospel they are added to the body. Nothing further?

I'm not sure what "the light comes on in ones mind of the truth of the gospel" means.

I just believe the scripture that Paul wrote which says that we are sealed when we believe/trust the gospel of our salvation per Ephesians 1:13. That word for "believe/trust" is the same one used here:

Rom 4:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
​

It's more than just an acknowledgment of something; it is belief with trust... but it requires no other action to receive it. Paul continues that same passage with this:

Rom 4:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
​

Paul makes a clear distinction between the belief/trust and any "work" to receive it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'm not sure what "the light comes on in ones mind of the truth of the gospel" means.

I just believe the scripture that Paul wrote which says that we are sealed when we believe/trust the gospel of our salvation per Ephesians 1:13. That word for "believe/trust" is the same one used here:

Rom 4:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
​

It's more than just an acknowledgment of something; it is belief with trust... but it requires no other action to receive it. Paul continues that same passage with this:

Rom 4:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
​

Paul makes a clear distinction between the belief/trust and any "work" to receive it.

Amen.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm not sure what "the light comes on in ones mind of the truth of the gospel" means.

It's an assumption on my part of what you see as the moment someone believes. If I'm incorrect, could you please explain what believe it means for someone to believe the gospel.

Thanks

 

[Right Divider]

It's an assumption on my part of what you see as the moment someone believes. If I'm incorrect, could you please explain what believe it means for someone to believe the gospel.

Thanks

Believing/Trusting the gospel of the grace of God means believing/trusting what God says, that Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification.

Rom 5:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ​

 

[turbosixx]

Believing/Trusting the gospel of the grace of God means believing/trusting what God says, that Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification.

Rom 5:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ​

It's my understanding that believing/trusting is more than mental consent. I'm curious what it looks like to you. I will start by showing you my understanding of what it means to believe/trust the word.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Those who were baptized were added because they believed/trusted the word.

Same with those who believed Paul.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

 

[Right Divider]

It's my understanding that believing/trusting is more than mental consent.

Who says that trusting is "just mental consent"?

I'm curious what it looks like to you. I will start by showing you my understanding of what it means to believe/trust the word.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Those who were baptized were added because they believed/trusted the word.

They were doing what those in Israel had done before the cross. This has nothing to do with the dispensation of the grace of God.

Same with those who believed Paul.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

Ruler of the synagogue gives you some context that you ignore.

I'll bet that you also think that being baptized into Christ's death also means getting wet. It does not.

 

[turbosixx]

Who says that trusting is "just mental consent"?


They were doing what those in Israel had done before the cross. This has nothing to do with the dispensation of the grace of God.


Ruler of the synagogue gives you some context that you ignore.

I'll bet that you also think that being baptized into Christ's death also means getting wet. It does not.

What does believe/trust look like to you?

 

[Right Divider]

What does believe/trust look like to you?

You cannot measure "by grace through faith" the way that you seem to want to do.

 

[turbosixx]

You cannot measure "by grace through faith" the way that you seem to want to do.

I'm just trying to understand from other's viewpoint.

I know James says the demons believe and I don't believe they are saved so it's more than mental consent or understanding. If it's more than that, how much more. I believe it takes belief and action of some sort.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm just trying to understand from other's viewpoint.

I continue to try to help you understand my viewpoint.

I know James says the demons believe and I don't believe they are saved so it's more than mental consent or understanding.

CONTEXT.... CONTEXT.... CONTEXT.... I know that many use that verse, but they do so wrongly.

Jas 2:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ​

What do the devils believe? That there is ONE GOD. That is a fact, but it's NOT the gospel of the grace of God.

If it's more than that, how much more. I believe it takes belief and action of some sort.

You believe a false gospel.

The GIFT of God is eternal life.

Rom 6:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

You keep trying to put a price tag on the GIFT.

 

[turbosixx]

I continue to try to help you understand my viewpoint.

And I do appreciate it.

CONTEXT.... CONTEXT.... CONTEXT.... I know that many use that verse, but they do so wrongly.

Jas 2:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ​

What do the devils believe? That there is ONE GOD. That is a fact, but it's NOT the gospel of the grace of God.

True, but I believe they know the gospel as well.
Acts 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.”

You believe a false gospel.

The GIFT of God is eternal life.

Rom 6:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

You keep trying to put a price tag on the GIFT.

We can never pay the price, that's why it's a gift. I want to understand who gets the gift and who does not based on scripture.

I'm not understanding your viewpoint of believe/trust.

What does it mean to believe/trust or what does it look like?

 

[Right Divider]

And I do appreciate it.

Thanks.

True, but I believe they know the gospel as well.

But, that is not what the verse in James was saying.

Acts 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.”

Where does it say that this person trusts the gospel of the grace of God?

You are trying to make verses mean things that they do not mean.

We can never pay the price, that's why it's a gift. I want to understand who gets the gift and who does not based on scripture.

Those that trust God and receive the gift.

I'm not understanding your viewpoint of believe/trust.

What does it mean to believe/trust or what does it look like?

It seems like to you want a list of do's and don'ts. The dispensation of the grace of God simply does NOT work that way.

 

[turbosixx]

It seems like to you want a list of do's and don'ts. The dispensation of the grace of God simply does NOT work that way.

If it doesn't work that way, fine. Based on your replies I can only surmise that to believe/trust means to come to a mental understanding. Am I missing something?

 

[drbrumley]

If it doesn't work that way, fine. Based on your replies I can only surmise that to believe/trust means to come to a mental understanding. Am I missing something?

What does the word "trust" mean to you?