The Meaning of the Term "Son of God"

[Jerry Shugart]

There are different ways to interpret the passage, but context is important too,...

Since the context is important then why did you just ignore the context? Why did you not even attempt to prove what I said about the meaning according to the context is in error? Let us look at this passage again and if I am in error about anything which I said then please tell me exactly what I said that is in error:

We can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.
​

Thanks!

 

[freelight]

Re-pivotting the dialogue........

Re-pivotting the dialogue........

Since the context is important then why did you just ignore the context? Why did you not even attempt to prove what I said about the meaning according to the context is in error? Let us look at this passage again and if I am in error about anything which I said then please tell me exactly what I said that is in error:

We can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.
​

Thanks!

Hi JS,

Gonna give Colossians a rest for awhile, and move onto other contexts. I think I've shared enough on this particular passage for the time being, supplying 2 seminal videos as well. (from 2 of your favorite Unitarians no doubt lol)

Now concerning the 'pre-existence' of Jesus, this opens the scope a bit more bringing other elements into the over-all picture. Now matter one's Christology, most would agree the human Jesus did have a beginning of existence at the point of his incarnation or 'inception', at least in his human appearance (obviously). Things get a bit more 'complex' with Jesus having pre-existed his incarnation, - how far back (in time or eternity)? ; in what form did he exist? - this brings in pre-existence concepts held by Trinitarians, Arians, Gnostics and other interesting viewpoints. Traditionally of course the largest debate centered around the Arian controversy with its assumption of Jesus having a beginning and not existing timelessly with God, but was a firstborn creation and creative Agent thru which God brings forth creation and redemption. I personally see nothing wrong with this view, or some other Semi-Arian positions. - then later controversies began to try to 'flesh out' what the human and divine natures of Christ, and the fun just continues.

In any case,....we'll leave it here for now as far my involvement goes, until some new commentaries flow forth. I did have my own 2 threads on Unitarian Christianity and Arian Christianity a few years back, so this is old territory, but always interesting of course. I will leave my usual observations of proposing that trying to over-deify Jesus may be useless and unnecessary, (and I say that respectfully) as long as we respect how and in what ways Jesus REVEALS 'God'. And recognizing the essential fundamentals of religious truth principles, being that what matters most is how we live our lives and treat one another, per the Golden Rule, and universal law of love.

More thoughts on the 'pre-existence' of Jesus, when....and in what form?....soon to come

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Gonna give Colossians a rest for awhile, and move onto other contexts.

I can understand why you do not want to respond to what I said about the following passage from the first chapter of Colossians. I said:

Let us look at this passage again and if I am in error about anything which I said then please tell me exactly what I said that is in error:

We can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.​

I challenge you to try to prove that anything I said about this subject is in error.

Thanks!

 

[freelight]

Doctrinal Punch..............

Doctrinal Punch..............

I can understand why you do not want to respond to what I said about the following passage from the first chapter of Colossians. I said:

Let us look at this passage again and if I am in error about anything which I said then please tell me exactly what I said that is in error:

We can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.​

I challenge you to try to prove that anything I said about this subject is in error.

Thanks!

I have no mind to necessarily 'disprove' your view, in so much as share an alternative interpretation of the passage, which can be rationally done within a more or less Unitarian Christology. Its all good - One can interpret this passage and others to support or prove Jesus pre-existence, as well as differentiate Jesus the man from a divine principle or divine nature aspect that Jesus came to share with his humanity by some way of 'joining', and an 'adoptionist' or 'trinitarian'(hypostatic union) view could be had here, among others.

I'm about 'creative dialogue' and 'expanding consciousness', not necessarily nailing down a 'dogma' or 'formal' profession on any given particular, beyond my own observation shared. So in this view, I'm pressing for a multi-dimensional approach, more universal. So one assumes Jesus pre-existed,....wonderful. There are many religionists, theosophists and spiritualists who believe we pre-existed before physical birth too, in some form....in the spirit-world before incarnating, and have even had many hundreds of previous incarnations as well,...you see the field is pretty wide in this respect. And you gotta love that I bring these kind of extensions to the discussion. Love it or hate it,....its one of those freelight-features

- Just to spike the punch,....so say Jesus pre-existed in some form,...can you prove he existed as 'God the Son' within an orthodox definition of a 'Godhead' somewhere in eternity...along with two other personalities, The Father and the Spirit? You can 'assume' such by a preconceived Trinitarian context which packages them all neatly into a compound unity, doctrinally speaking anyways. - such a view may be helpful or not to one's theology.

A Unitarian view can be used as a conceptual frame too, or some other arrangement. Much is the same furniture pieces just variously arranged. What view one assumes or prefers will depend on various factors of disposition. We might also see that all points of view may be subject to change. - and that's ok.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have no mind to necessarily 'disprove' your view, in so much as share an alternative interpretation of the passage, which can be rationally done within a more or less Unitarian Christology.

After discussing the things revealed in the Bible with you I know that if you think that you can prove something someone says is in error then you will do just that!

So I know you have tried to find something that I said is in error but you can't find any error. So now you give an excuse why you will not even try to "disprove" my view.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just to spike the punch,....so say Jesus pre-existed in some form,...can you prove he existed as 'God the Son' within an orthodox definition of a 'Godhead' somewhere in eternity...along with two other personalities, The Father and the Spirit?

Let us see what is said here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Lord Jesus is the Mighty God and that is none other than JHWH:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever to the fact that the Lord Jesus existed prior to His birth on the earth.