The Meaning of the Term "Son of God"

[daqq]

Is He also your Master and Lord?

After all, He said the following:

"So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet" (Jn.13:12-14).​

Master and Lord and spiritual husband.

Luke 6:46 ASV
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Master and Lord and spiritual husband.

How about you? The same?

He is my master and Lord and I also worship Him as God. He said:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him"(Jn.5:23).​

I honor the Lord Jesus in the same way that I honor the Father so I honor them both as being my God.

Do you honor the Lord Jesus as your God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is from Revelation of Messiah Yeshua who is the Son of Elohim:

I have already explained what is meant by the term "Son of God." In fact, that is the subject of this thread. And so far you have not even attempted to prove anything which I wrote is in error.

Plus you just ignored the context of Revelation 1:8 which makes it plain that the One who is "to come" is the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

Why do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8?

 

[daqq]

I have already explained what is meant by the term "Son of God." In fact, that is the subject of this thread. And so far you have not even attempted to prove anything which I wrote is in error.

Plus you just ignored the context of Revelation 1:8 which makes it plain that the One who is "to come" is the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

Why do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8?

Ummm, we've already been over that, and why do you refuse to consider the opening statement which I quoted?

Revelation 1:1a
1 αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου
1 Revelation of Messiah Yeshua

Same as where Paul received his Gospel of Messiah Yeshua, (well before 95-96 AD).

Galatians 1:12
12 ουδε γαρ εγω παρα ανθρωπου παρελαβον αυτο ουτε εδιδαχθην αλλα δι αποκαλυψεως ιησου χριστου

 

[jamie]

Do you honor the Lord Jesus as your God?

No.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No.

Do you honor the Father as your God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ummm, we've already been over that, and why do you refuse to consider the opening statement which I quoted?

I answered what you said. We can clearly see that the words at Revelation 1:8 is a "testimony" from Someone.

And John makes it plain whose testimony that is:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).​

Not only do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8 but you also refuse to consider who is giving His testimony in that verse.

You will never come to the knowledge of the truth if you interpret the Bible according to your preconceived ideas.

 

[daqq]

I have already explained what is meant by the term "Son of God." In fact, that is the subject of this thread. And so far you have not even attempted to prove anything which I wrote is in error.

Plus you just ignored the context of Revelation 1:8 which makes it plain that the One who is "to come" is the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).​

Why do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8?

I answered what you said. We can clearly see that the words at Revelation 1:8 is a "testimony" from Someone.

And John makes it plain whose testimony that is:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).​

Not only do you refuse to consider the "context" of Revelation 1:8 but you also refuse to consider who is giving His testimony in that verse.

You will never come to the knowledge of the truth if you interpret the Bible according to your preconceived ideas.

It was me who already answered you and you never even responded even though you continued posting in that thread after I answered you. Anyone can go back and see that it was you who entirely ignored and avoided what was said when I addressed your invalid assertions concerning Rev 1:8. How can you expect anyone to believe anything else you say when you practice such shady tactics while knowingly falsely accusing people? Do you really suppose that having a herd of others agreeing with you simply because of a dogma makes your dogma right?

Yes, and these words spoken by the Lord Jesus prove that He is the Almighty:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).
​

Then tell me who this is referring to:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Yes, and these words spoken by the Lord Jesus prove that He is the Almighty:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Then tell me who this is referring to:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Yohanan says that phrase concerns the Father in a preceding passage:

Revelation 1:4-5 ASV
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;

Revelation 1:4 W/H
4 ιωαννης ταις επτα εκκλησιαις ταις εν τη ασια χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος και απο των επτα πνευματων α ενωπιον του θρονου αυτου

"ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος" = "Who Is - and - Who Was - and - Who Is To Come"

And "ο ων" is the critical portion from the Name of the Father in Exodus 3:14 in the LXX-Septuagint:

Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Exodus 3:14 LXX - Brenton English Translation
14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

As anyone may see the focus is not on "εγω ειμι", ("I am"), but the Eternal Existing One, ("ο ων").

From the Brenton Translation: "ο ων" ("HO ON") = "THE BEING"

In the mind of the first century reader who knows the scripture this statement, "ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος", clearly speaks of the Father. The text likewise plainly shows this to be the case because the opening greeting is from ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος, (via Yohanan), and that is a greeting from the Father, (in bold royal blue in the above quote), and next is given a greeting from the seven Spirits which are before His throne, (in bold bright blue in the above quote), then only after those two greetings comes the greeting from Messiah, (in bold red in the above quote), which is clearly and deliberately separated from the first greeting by way of Yohanan from the Father, (ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος).

You never responded to the above post and neither can you refute my first post in this thread.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How can you expect anyone to believe anything else you say when you practice such shady tactics while knowingly falsely accusing people? Do you really suppose that having a herd of others agreeing with you simply because of a dogma makes your dogma right?

Are you under the illusion that what you just quoted is on this thread?

Perhaps you will tell me exactly where I can find the posts of yours of which you speak.

 

[jamie]

Do you honor the Father as your God?

Yes, Jesus and I worship the same Being, the Most High.

 

[freelight]

Sons of God are many.............

Sons of God are many.............

When the Lord Jesus told the Jews that God was His Father they knew that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding and the Lord Jesus is not equal to God then there can be no doubt that He would have cleared up this misunderstanding and said that He was not claiming to be God. However, what He told them only made it plainer that He was claiming to be God.

Not necessarily,....since he did indeed call God his Father, and ONLY ever claimed to be the 'Son of God', which is why he corrected them by quoting Psalm 82 later in chapter 10. Read the chapter in context to see what Jesus was saying. The Jews falsely claimed Jesus was making himself 'God', something Jesus did not claim for he honored his Father, - he showed them that calling himself the 'Son of God' was not blasphemous, since judges/rulers in days of old were in fact called 'gods' (elohim),...and sons of the most High. Therefore, he was NOT blaspheming, this was Jesus defense, from the scriptures. He corrected them on that note, while showing them that to be called the Son of God was not blasphemy, since God his Father sent him as His messenger and prophet to the people, to proclaim his word, to DO His will.

Furthermore as we consider these passages in John,....note that Psalm 82 calls these human judges 'gods' (elohim) and sons of the most High. -


Psalm 82

God takes His stand in [a]His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? [c]Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 [d]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.

- NASB

Notice that these judges were called sons of God. This challenges your OP's position that only Jesus is called the Son of God, since other humans also are recognized as 'sons' of God. Let us look at more examples -

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

-Luke 3:37-38

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

-Matt. 5:9

35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

-Luke 20:35-37

~*~*~

So we see, that if you want to say that using the term 'son' of God indicates that these 'sons' have the nature of 'God', then you have to assume by your example or rule, that these human beings are 'elohim' (gods) and sons of the Most High. - unless there are exceptions to the rule

Going back to your quoted passage in John, where the Jews were claiming that he was claiming to be God, lets skip to chapter 10 -

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

So,....we do see others being called sons of God, even Adam, and judges/rulers in the OT, even before Jesus coming. We also have those born from above in the Spirit as partakers of the divine nature, after the Jesus ascended and the spirit of truth being poured out, being called sons of God. These 'sons' are not 'God' himself, but the offspring of God, generated by God in one way or another, in any given dispensation. The term 'Son of God' in Jesus case is special and unique because of his rank, position and status as the Christ, and even though his specialized 'sonship' by his miraculous birth, divine anointing at his baptism or some other special event or transformation, sealed the fullness of his 'sonship'.....he is still the Son of God, and by way of sonship is subordinate to his God and Father, even if we hold a special and unique divinity or human-divine confusion of the Son,.....ever a Son he remains. It goes without saying that if we honor the Father we will certainly honor the Son, for the Father and Son are inseperable testimonies of one another, - and our own sonship with God is invested and secured therein.

 

[freelight]

He is forever locked into being a human.
He is forever locked into being God.
Both statements are true.
It's called the "hypostatic union".

A most interesting coalescing of natures, and rather confounding as well. While admitting to the profound mystery of the this human-divine fusion, it would appear that 'God' ( in some aspect or form) is now forever limited to that humanity, although we can only speculate how Jesus who is 'God the Son' within an orthodox Trinity theory moves about and governs his universe while contained in such a 'body' while also maintaining perogatives of divine power and omnipresence. We'll give it a 'plus' in any case, in the area of one of those divine mysteries

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not necessarily,....since he did indeed call God his Father, and ONLY ever claimed to be the 'Son of God', which is why he corrected them by quoting Psalm 82 later in chapter 10. Read the chapter in context to see what Jesus was saying. The Jews falsely claimed Jesus was making himself 'God', something Jesus did not claim for he honored his Father, - he showed them that calling himself the 'Son of God' was not blasphemous, since judges/rulers in days of old were in fact called 'gods' (elohim),...and sons of the most High. Therefore, he was NOT blaspheming, this was Jesus defense, from the scriptures. He corrected them on that note, while showing them that to be called the Son of God was not blasphemy, since God his Father sent him as His messenger and prophet to the people, to proclaim his word, to DO His will.

You fail to realize that what He said to the Jews next lead them to believe that He was indeed claiming to be God:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand" (Jn.10:36-39).​

There can be no doubt in the minds of the Jews who heard Him that He was still claiming to be God, especially when we consider what He told them previously:

"I and my Father are one" (Jn.10:30).​

The Jews had also heard Him say that He gives His sheep eternal life:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).​

The Jews who heard Him understood that He was claiming to be God and that is why "they sought again to take Him."

It is also a fact that the reason why the Jews wanted Him put to death was because He "made Himself the Son of God" (Jn.19:7). They believed when He used the term "Son of God" to describe Himself He was claiming to be God.

If this was just a misunderstanding about what the Lord Jesus meant when He used the term "Son of God" then surely this matter could have been cleared up easily by the Lord just saying that He was not claiming to be God. The fact that He did not say that demonstrates that He was indeed claiming to be God.

Again, earlier when He was accused of making Himself equal to God (Jn.5:18) what He told the Jews only made it even more plain that He was claiming to be God. First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

 

[Zeke]

Uh-oh, someone sounds like he feels he is being judged. I said nothing about escaping or not escaping judgment to the OP. What I said concerned doctrine and the supreme logic, (and logical conclusions), from the statements of Yeshua which I quoted. It is about doctrine, (which the OP seems to think he can just ignore as is constantly done in other threads). If you have heard the Logos, and rejected it, and now you feel judged: what does that have to do with me? It only shows that what Yeshua says of the Logos he speaks was and is true, (for example that is exactly what he says in John 12:47-48 quoted above). :chuckle:

No, just taking a more liberal approach to the many faces and tongues of the Divine, the exclusive nature of labels tend to corral the Spirit in a cultural box canyon.
I like you're approach and you have some good points so just stating an opinion on the exclusive nature of cultural programming through words/sounds that tend to breed the very thing "you thought was my motive".

 

[freelight]

Adam Kadmon

Adam Kadmon

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

There are different ways to see this, and different Christological options for your palate

My commentary on 'sons' of God holds,....as human beings and angels may be called 'elohim' or the 'sons of elohim'. This may indicate that they have some divine nature or attributes inheritated by their Creator-Father, or may be more or less just an appellation of affection,...whatever the case,...even we now are the sons of God, according to John. - perhaps even like sons of thunder - the more passionate ones. In any case, we are all the offspring of God. There is no other God or Father existing, besides that Infinite One I AM.

Adam is mentioned as a Son of God, and so is Jesus, the last or second Adam. We can play with these metaphors and archetypes, exploring their esoteric meaning as well. Also insightful is the concept of 'Adam-Kadmon' from the Kaballah

 

[daqq]

You fail to realize that what He said to the Jews next lead them to believe that He was indeed claiming to be God:

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand" (Jn.10:36-39).​

There can be no doubt in the minds of the Jews who heard Him that He was still claiming to be God, especially when we consider what He told them previously:

"I and my Father are one" (Jn.10:30).​

The Jews had also heard Him say that He gives His sheep eternal life:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).​

The Jews who heard Him understood that He was claiming to be God and that is why "they sought again to take Him."

It is also a fact that the reason why the Jews wanted Him put to death was because He "made Himself the Son of God" (Jn.19:7). They believed when He used the term "Son of God" to describe Himself He was claiming to be God.

If this was just a misunderstanding about what the Lord Jesus meant when He used the term "Son of God" then surely this matter could have been cleared up easily by the Lord just saying that He was not claiming to be God. The fact that He did not say that demonstrates that He was indeed claiming to be God.

Again, earlier when He was accused of making Himself equal to God (Jn.5:18) what He told the Jews only made it even more plain that He was claiming to be God. First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

And you fail to believe the Testimony of Yeshua already quoted in this thread:

Where is your pal Right Divider? His name says it all; rightly divide, for the Son of Elohim speaks through the man Yeshua because that is the Spirit which the Father sent upon the man Yeshua who is the Anointed One. The Son is himself the very Anointing who abode-remained upon the man Yeshua from his immersion. The man Yeshua never seeks his own glory:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge.

And the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. Therefore the man Yeshua cannot be the Son because the man Yeshua judges no one according to his own Testimony, (and the heavens and the earth shall pass away but his words shall not pass away). Neither does the Father judge anyone because it is His Logos-Word who is the Judge. The Logos-Word therefore cannot be the man Yeshua because the man Yeshua judges no one. Likewise Yeshua says in the same passage that if he testifies of himself his testimony is not true. Yet in the same passage he speaks of the Son, and exalts the Son over and above himself, and testifies of the Son and the Son of man, (because Testimony is Spirit and the Testimony of Yeshua is therefore the Son of man).

John 5:22-31 ASV
22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;
23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

The man Yeshua never claims to be "God Almighty" anywhere because if he did not only would he be testifying of himself but he would be exalting himself. This is why Yeshua always speaks of both the Son of Elohim and the Son of man in the third person; for the Son is that Spirit upon him and the Testimony which Yeshua speaks is likewise the Son of man. It is all about Testimony because, as Yeshua says, the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life.

The very fact that you claim that Yeshua claims to be God Almighty proves that he is not God Almighty because HE HIMSELF testifies that if he testifies concerning himself his witness or testimony is not true. Yeshua nowhere exalts himself but glorifies the Father and His Word, (who is His only begotten Elohim-Son). There are other ways to read and understand the "proof texts" you keep posting and quoting but you refuse to see them in any other way than from your own mindset which you are forcing onto and into the text. You also failed to give any attention to the fact that the John 5 passage which you have quoted above has already been addressed in my own quote from this thread where it was clearly noted and explained that Yeshua is clearly speaking of the Son in the third person. If someone else came to this forum, and was always speaking of himself or herself in the third person, most everyone here would consider that person mentally unstable or deranged; and yet, Yeshua speaks of the Son, the Logos, and the Son of man, all in the third person continuously throughout the Gospel accounts, while you insist he is always speaking of himself even after so much of your fallacy has been exposed in one way or another throughout multiple threads. You're in something like a dream world where everything must be read according to how someone else told you that you must read it if you wish to be part of their club. Only problem is they have taught you to read most everything outside of the normal way of reading things in the real world. No one speaks of himself in the third person for his entire earthly ministry: it is confusion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only problem is they have taught you to read most everything outside of the normal way of reading things in the real world.

I take what is said here in the normal way of reading things in the real world:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

I also take the following words of Thomas spoken to the Lord Jesus in the normal way of reading things in the real world:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

I think that it is you who reads these verses outside of the normal way of reading things in the real world.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no other God or Father existing, besides that Infinite One I AM.

Yes, and when the Lord Jesus said the following the Jews who heard Him believed that He was claiming to be God:

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" Jn.5:58).​

That is why those Jews wanted to kill Him:

"Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:59).​

The Jews knew that when the Lord Jesus used the words "I AM" that He was referring to what is said here about God:

"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:13-14).​

 

[jamie]

A most interesting coalescing of natures, and rather confounding as well. While admitting to the profound mystery of the this human-divine fusion, it would appear that 'God' ( in some aspect or form) is now forever limited to that humanity, although we can only speculate how Jesus who is 'God the Son' within an orthodox Trinity theory moves about and governs his universe while contained in such a 'body' while also maintaining perogatives of divine power and omnipresence. We'll give it a 'plus' in any case, in the area of one of those divine mysteries

Does Jesus' current body have mass?

 

[freelight]

Ego Eimi of John 8:58

Ego Eimi of John 8:58

Yes, and when the Lord Jesus said the following the Jews who heard Him believed that He was claiming to be God:

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" Jn.5:58).​

That is why those Jews wanted to kill Him:

"Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:59).​

The Jews knew that when the Lord Jesus used the words "I AM" that He was referring to what is said here about God:

"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:13-14).​

Hi JS,

I've treated John 8:58 many times in the past. An aquaintence (Chandler who was a JW) and I already had 2 threads on this very passage (this was years ago, the threads are no longer extant). First of all,...'ego eimi' is a common greek phrase simply denoting one's identity, in common parlance of "I am he", as it is often rendered. It is not a reference to the name of 'God'(YHWH) found in Ex. 3:14, since 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' has a different meaning altogether in hebrew, and can also be translated "I will be what/who I will be" (future tense emphasis). If you want a greek equivalent to 'ehyeh asher ehyeh', see the Septuagint....it renders it in greek as 'ego eimi Ho on' (I am The BEING),...there is no such thing as a divine name being 'ego eimi' all by itself, since other persons use that phrase to identify themselves in the Bible as well, that does not make them YHWH.

This common trinitarian 'assumption' that Jesus is claiming to be the tetragrammaton itself, has no foundation, support or validity, once you learn a few basic facts, and interpret the passage in its context properly, without reading into the passage your theological preconception. Also, bible translations that capitalize 'ego eimi' as 'I AM' is pure theological bias (such as in the CJB, NKJV, ISV, Phillips, MEV, NABRE, WEB), to purposely equate Jesus as YHWH. It just doesn't fly. Just a heads up

Below is a good synopsis on some of the points about John 8:58 by John Schoenheit, and thats just for starters -