The Meaning of the Term "Son of God"

[daqq]

Time is a way to measure history so we can relate to a point in history where something or someone existed.

To exist is to be, and the meaning of the verb varies in accordance with the subject. For example: she is, we are, they were, I am - these all define an existence in history.

In John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

In other words, Jesus claimed he existed at a point in time prior to Abraham. The Jews were incredulous, they were stunned. Not because Jesus existed but because he claimed he existed before Abraham, the inference being self-existence and non-death. To them he was claiming to be YHVH.

You can only get that from reading English translations made by those who neither believe what the text actually says nor understand the teachings and Testimony of Yeshua himself.

John 8:58 W/H
58 ειπεν αυτοις ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι

John 8:58 T/R
58 ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι

The only people believing γενεσθαι should be rendered "was" in this passage are Trinitarian Bible scholars and people who want to force Yeshua into their own "God-Man" theology. Because of this your entire reference point for "time" in this passage is erroneous because someone told you that γενεσθαι should be rendered "was" in the above passage and you, (unwittingly), believe it.

But if it does not mean what they say then what does it mean?
http://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm still exploring 'pre-existence' issues about Jesus. Whether Jesus existed as a spirit-being with God before his physical birth or just existed within the Mind of God from eternity are considered.

Hi freelight,

Since Paul makes it plain that the Lord Jesus was "before all things" in this passage then I do not see how you can question His pre-existence:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Since Paul reveals that the Lord Jesus is " before all things" it is obvious that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary.

Besides that, Paul reveals that all created things were created through Him so how it is possible that He is a created being?

Thanks!

 

[jamie]

The only people believing γενεσθαι should be rendered "was" in this passage are Trinitarian Bible scholars and people who want to force Yeshua into their own "God-Man" theology. Because of this your entire reference point for "time" in this passage is erroneous because someone told you that γενεσθαι should be rendered "was" in the above passage and you, (unwittingly), believe it.

58. Before Abraham was, I am--The words rendered "was" and "am" are quite different. The one clause means, "Abraham was brought into being"; the other, "I exist." The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; in other words, existed before creation, or eternally (as Jhn 1:1 ). In that sense the Jews plainly understood Him, since "then took they up stones to cast at Him," just as they had before done when they saw that He made Himself equal with God ( Jhn 5:18 ).

Jamieson, Fausett & Brown.​

 

[daqq]

58. Before Abraham was, I am--The words rendered "was" and "am" are quite different. The one clause means, "Abraham was brought into being"; the other, "I exist." The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; in other words, existed before creation, or eternally (as Jhn 1:1 ). In that sense the Jews plainly understood Him, since "then took they up stones to cast at Him," just as they had before done when they saw that He made Himself equal with God ( Jhn 5:18 ).

Jamieson, Fausett & Brown.​

Oh well, those incapable of following context are likewise incapable of learning a new song.
To each his or her own I suppose . . .

 

[Zeke]

I am wasn't created which is part of every conscience being who can consider their own awareness, Sticks and stones hurt the physical Body verses words that also hurt the temporal created persona until one stops participating in the programming of the Master Slave motif that veils ones origins from above.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jerry,

Yes, and when the Lord Jesus said the following the Jews who heard Him believed that He was claiming to be God:

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" Jn.5:58).​

That is why those Jews wanted to kill Him:

"Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (Jn.8:59).​

The Jews knew that when the Lord Jesus used the words "I AM" that He was referring to what is said here about God:

"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex.3:13-14).​

The immediate context of John 8:58 gives the meaning of “I am”:
John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now note that the KJV translators have added the "he"” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[freelight]

The I AM Presence......

The I AM Presence......

I am wasn't created which is part of every conscience being who can consider their own awareness, Sticks and stones hurt the physical Body verses words that also hurt the temporal created persona until one stops participating in the programming of the Master Slave motif that veils ones origins from above.

Yes,....in the greater context of pure energy-consciousness, we are all 'Elohim' in the flesh - we are the temple of 'God'. The 'I AM' Presence is that spark, fragment or individualized spirit-presence in us that is of the essence of 'God', - it spoke from its primal essence as 'ehyeh asher ehyeh', being its own Self-recognized condition of conscious existence,...therefore it knows itself 'TO BE' - this is the 'Self'(atman) within, our 'god-self' (goes by other names too, 'thought-ajduster', higher self, divine ID-entity, etc.)

The very fact that we can say "I am" is because of the fact of the truth of existence itself (Ehyeh or Ahyah), pure consciousness relfecting back upon its own 'being'. - I am that

I had a classic thread called "The Mighty I AM Presence" years back, wherein I explored all facets of the divine name, from many different religious and philosophical schools, particularly the ascended master schools,....some awesome stuff :angel: - I include a chart of the 'I AM' Presence here (this is from the Summit Lighthouse school, with the 'higher-Christ-self in the middle of the chart, who acts as a 'go-between' of sorts between the soul-body and the I AM Presence ontop)

View attachment 25089

The I AM Presence chart

Anyways,....just extending the understanding of 'I AM' outside the traditional borders,....but we can get back to the more traditional format of Christology as we know it within Christendom

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

Greetings Trevor,

Of course He did nothing of His self on the earth since He was sent into the world to do the will of the Father. However, His birth of Mary was not the beginning if His existence because the Apostle Paul reveals that He was "before all things:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Since Paul reveals that the Lord Jesus is " before all things" it is obvious that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary.

Besides that, Paul reveals that all created things were created through Him so how it is possible that He is a created being?

Thanks!

 

[daqq]

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

Of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

Anyway, if you know the whole song, the passage you quote and ask about includes all seven of the "I am" statements, (because it is the climax of the song), so it is the full force of the sum total of the Seven, (for example Uriel is the light of the kosmos, and one of the seven Spirits before the throne, but I would not expect you or many others here to understand so that is okay too, lol). :chuckle:

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

Of course He did nothing of His self on the earth since He was sent into the world to do the will of the Father. However, His birth of Mary was not the beginning if His existence because the Apostle Paul reveals that He was "before all things:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Since Paul reveals that the Lord Jesus is " before all things" it is obvious that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary. Besides that, Paul reveals that all created things were created through Him so how it is possible that He is a created being?

We discussed some of this in the “John 10:30 – Jesus is the Son of God” thread and although you may not have been happy with my brief answer there, I will repeat that Colossians 1 is speaking of the spiritual creation, and thus Jesus is before all things, not only in prospect before the Edenic creation, but he is the head of the spiritual creation and the first to rise from the dead. Are you suggesting in effect that Jesus is really claiming that he used to be God, but now he is only a man in John 8:28 and 8:58?

In an earlier Post you drew attention to Exodus 3:14 and my suggestion is that if we understand the Yahweh Name correctly, then we start to appreciate how Jesus is part of this Yahweh Name, and yet a created being, the Son of God. The following is an introduction to this theme, as well as an answer to your claim that John 8:58 is quoting Exodus 3:14.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity. It is true that God exists and the KJV “I AM” is thus true in itself, but God associates His Name with the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. God is going to be with Moses, and the work of deliverance will be God’s achievement, God’s work, God’s power.

Thus this future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished as far as this deliverance from Egypt, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

Continuing from the above post: But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
There is one God the Father. Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is the Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Greetings again Jerry,We discussed some of this in the “John 10:30 – Jesus is the Son of God” thread and although you may not have been happy with my brief answer there, I will repeat that Colossians 1 is speaking of the spiritual creation, and thus Jesus is before all things, not only in prospect before the Edenic creation, but he is the head of the spiritual creation and the first to rise from the dead.

How can you say that this in "bold" is only referring to a "spiritual creation"?:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

We can also see here that it was through the Lord Jesus that the worlds were made:

"...hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds" (Heb.1:2).​

This is not speaking of only a "spiritual creation," as you imagine. According to what you say, "all things" were not created through Him.

Since He was in existence at a time when the worlds were created then it is obvious that He existed before He was born of Mary.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour.

That can only mean that the Lord Jesus is YHWH:

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" (Isa.43:11).​

 

[freelight]

Colossians 1:15-20

Colossians 1:15-20

Hi freelight,

Since Paul makes it plain that the Lord Jesus was "before all things" in this passage then I do not see how you can question His pre-existence:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).

Since Paul reveals that the Lord Jesus is " before all things" it is obvious that the Lord Jesus existed before He was born of Mary.

Besides that, Paul reveals that all created things were created through Him so how it is possible that He is a created being?

Thanks!

Lets look at the entire chapter 1 to see this in 'context'. Notice that the 'creation' Paul speaks of is referring to the 'new creation' or 'establishment' of things renewed in Christ, since this new kingdom or 'creation' is realized in the Lordship of Jesus and his resurrection from the dead, - it is this resurrection unto victory over the fallen powers of darkness, and the exaltation of Christ and his new kingdom order or hierarchy of power, that NOW RULES in and as the 'church',...the body of Christ, He being the Head. The term 'before' all things can mean in time, but also in rank, order or pre-eminence,...and surely as 'firstborn from the dead', he is that, the firstfruits of them that rise. He is also called the Firstborn of creation, this relating to the new creation, since it must refer to the new-creation of the resurrection and that 'new condition' of existence and glory. The mystery of Paul's gospel contains this hidden truth, the glory of Christ in us, the new creation reality that establishes the kingdom of power and its ruling principalities, which includes the righteous angelic orders and redeemed saints on earth. The 'new creation' appears to encompass the invisible and visible realms of existence,...as we see the metaphor of heavenly things corresponding to earthly things. Do these verses prove Jesus himself is the Creator (in the Genesis account), or the new creation or renewal of all creation brought about IN and THRU him? I think the latter....in Paul's teaching in any case, since this is the emphasis. (firstborn of creation, firstborn from the dead, firstborn of many brethren)

Before the passage in question we read -

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us [r]to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Then....

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by (or 'in' is argued by some to be a more proper translation) Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

So we see Jesus pre-eminence shines thru all creation, particularly the new creation that has come about in Him, as this 'in Christ' concept carries thru-out his teaching. A view neither supporting a trinitarian or Arian view on this can be had, focusing more on Jesus being the preeminent head and firstborn over a whole new order which swallows up the entire pre-existing creation in his glory. The pre-eminence here does not have anything to do necessarily with Jesus being 'God' (or Jesus being the first angelic divine Son created THRU which God created all things, but is one possible view), but is the effect of what God the Father has wrought "in" Christ, "thru" Christ. - and this theme is held thru-out the entire chapter, corresponding to other letters of Paul as well. And do NOTE, in Paul's teaching Christ is EVER sub-ordinate to the Father and in the end hands all things over to God. Subordination and submission to the PRIMACY of the Father is ever maintained, while Jesus rules in his faithful role as both 'Lord' and 'Christ'.

I'm sure the heretic hunters will be putting me somewhere in the 'subordinationist' camp

Formal Text study here.

 

[freelight]

'ego eimi ho on'

'ego eimi ho on'

:thumb:

Exactly!

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.- LXX

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Hi steko,

I've addressed this with my two former posts on John 8:58, and Daqq also added more to challange your assumption of what the greek Septuagint teaches as the 'name' of God, and it is NOT equal to the common phrase also used by other human beings as 'ego eimi' as used in John 8:58. The Septuagint has 'ego eimi ho on' as the divine name or equivalent of the hebrew 'ehyeh asher ehyeh'. Anyone can say "ego eimi" since it was a common greek phrase used in identifying oneself. Other people use the phrase 'ego eimi' in the Bible, does that make them God?

Jesus was letting the Jews know that he was the one Abraham was looking forward to - the Messiah, the one who existed in the mind or plan of God even before Abraham, which angered the Jews since it appeared he was exalting himself above Abraham. Jesus did NOT say "ego eimi ho on" (I am the Being) as recorded in the Septuagint, and its believed Jesus and his apostles were familiar with that translation. Jesus could have said that which would be more of a clear declaration of being 'God'. Therefore it is more fitting that Jesus was claiming his identity and existence as the Messiah Abraham was looking forward to, so he said "I am he". The one Abraham was looking forward to is the context of the passage here, to which afterwards he responds with "I am that one". Remember the 'context' of the chapter.

Even if we assume that Jesus was saying something closer to "Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been" (NWT).,....his pre-existence does not necessarily make him God Almighty, since many other beings created by God that pre-existed Abraham, and they are not necessarily 'God'. In this case, an Arian position could be had just as well, but this is still being researched.

~*~*~


Meta-tation:

Also dont forget, as shared in an earlier post, beyond all this, if we consider the pure awareness of our own existence, that pure awareness is born out of the reality of 'God', for there is no other source of existence or awareness, seperate from or outside of this One Universal Consciousness. This very Life, Energy, Spirit, Substance is 'God',...for there is no other. This brings all things down to the more irreducible essence of pure energy. This takes us into a more transcendental realm that includes all , pervades all, encompasses all, being INFINITE. Our 'I AM Presence' is that pure essence of divinity within reflecting back to itself its own beingness. Hence, when any sentient being utters "I Am" in the deepest part of his being, he alludes to 'God', since there is no other presence or power, but that ONE.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

That can only mean that the Lord Jesus is YHWH:

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" (Isa.43:11).​

Jesus is indeed now acknowledged as Yahweh, because God the Father has created a Son, who now fully represents His Father. Just as the Judges were called Elohim, and the Angels are also called Elohim, and at least one angel bears the Name of Yahweh, because they represent God and speak and act on His behalf, so Jesus the perfect representative of His Father has been given the Name Yahweh.
Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashiona as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Name that is above every name is Yahweh, and this Name has been given to him after his exaltation. When we bow before him as God’s representative, it redounds to the glory of God the Father.

The process is revealed in the Name Yahweh, where God the Father was to become whosoever He wills to create. In New Testament terms the Yahweh theme has been revealed in the simple concept that God the Father has created a Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and other sons have been begotten by believing the gospel, and have thus been adopted into Christ. Yes, Yahweh, God the Father is the only Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The term 'before' all things can mean in time, but also in rank, order or pre-eminence,...

If that is the meaning at Colossians 1:18 then we would read "above all things," and not "before all things."

I cannot find even one translation where it is translated "above all things." Besides that, we can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.

Besides that, if all created things were created through Him how is it possible that He is a created being?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus is indeed now acknowledged as Yahweh, because God the Father has created a Son, who now fully represents His Father.

The Lord Jesus is not a created being. We can see that the Almighty God is said to be the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending":

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

From what is said by John at Revelation 22:20 we can know that these words are those of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

Since only the Almighty God can be identified as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending" we can know with full assurance that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God and He is not a created Being!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

The Lord Jesus is not a created being. We can see that the Almighty God is said to be the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending":

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

From what is said by John at Revelation 22:20 we can know that these words are those of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

This is the concept of representation or God manifestation. Jesus expounds this concept in John 10:34-36 where he answers the Jews accusation that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 where the Judges were called Elohim because they were entrusted to administer the word of God faithfully. Thus when a person came before the Judge they were coming before God (Elohim) Exodus 21:6. But God was in heaven, but these judges represented God and God called them God, Gods (Elohim).

We have the same concept when the Angel appeared to Moses at the bush. The Angel says “I am the God of Abraham” Exodus 3:6, even though God was in heaven, and he was only the Angel speaking on God’s behalf. Moses records that he was afraid to look upon God (Elohim) Exodus 3:6, even though he had seen the Angel manifesting God’s glory in the bush and speaking on God’s behalf.

Since only the Almighty God can be identified as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending" we can know with full assurance that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God and He is not a created Being!

If a mortal Judge and an immortal Angel can thus speak as God’s representatives, how much more can the Only Begotten Son of God speak as He is the full manifestation of Yahweh, God the Father. Yes, Jesus is a created being, as He is the Son of Man, the son of Adam whom God visited and strengthened and glorified Psalm 8:4-5, Psalm 80:17. Note he was "made" or created a little lower than the angels - he is a created being, and this phrase is a summary/allusion to Genesis 1:26 where God and the angels created Adam and Eve. Thus Yahweh is incorporating His Son, and the ultimate is that the whole earth will be filled with the glory of God Numbers 14:21 and God will be All in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[freelight]

The preeminence of Christ as Firstborn of creation.....

The preeminence of Christ as Firstborn of creation.....

If that is the meaning at Colossians 1:18 then we would read "above all things," and not "before all things."

I cannot find even one translation where it is translated "above all things." Besides that, we can see that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created:

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

When we look at the "context" of what is said in "bold" we can understand that the "all things" mentioned there refers back to the "all things created," which includes all things in the heavens and upon the earth. And since all of those things were created "through Him" it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus existed at the time when all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.

The Lord Jesus' pre-existence is established in these verses and cannot be denied.

Besides that, if all created things were created through Him how is it possible that He is a created being?

Hi JS,

My former points and presentation here still holds. There are different ways to interpret the passage, but context is important too,....what is being emphasized is his preeminence as the Firstborn of creation, the firstborn from the dead....notice "first-born',....one that is 'born' or 'raised' is done so by a Fathering-Mothering Power, and that power is the Father-Mother of all. (I bring in the mothering element just to include the full powers and operation of the generating power of the One Infinite SOURCE). 'Christ' was in the Mind of God from eternity, as the 'Son' whom he would 'beget' into the world (via incarnation) and anoint to be his Messiah, the 'Agent' thru which he would bring forth the 'new creation', so since he is the first-born, he heads the new order of God's reign over all principalities and powers, since all power and authority has been given to him during his incarnation as the Son of Man/Son of God, at the proclomation of his sonship at his baptism, and then sealed and secured at his victorious resurrection/ascension. A Unitarian or Arian view ( or some variation thereof) is quite allowable here in place of a trinitarian one.

I hilighted that the passage is emphasizing the 'new creation' which in context, includes the ALL of creation. So Jesus role in his divine sonship and lordship established and won 'in the flesh' was already in the MIND of God from eternity, and in that way he was 'before all things', and the new creation is brought about thru and for him. A Unitarian view can work here too without there being a pre-existent timeless 'God the Son' existing before his incarnation. A more Arian view can work as well, since why cannot 'God' create or emenate from his own Being, an Agent or an 'agency' THRU which he could create? God and his 'logos' being the creative vehicle THRU which he brings into being all creation, all cycles, all transformations of life, energy, matter. With an Arian-type view, 'God' is still ever the Creator, but creates thru his Son, all dispensations, but again we do note that here, he is emphasizing the new creation in Christ. Again, we ask as a matter of exploration here, why could not God create or 'generate' a 'Son', 'logos', 'Christ' agent....thru which he brings to pass his plans and purposes? Its still all 'God' doing the work, no matter what 'vehicle' he uses.....I dont really see any problem with that. All glory still ever goes to 'God' Alone, since 'God' is sole power in operation, respecting Jesus humanity and any divine attributions thereof. The archetype of Jesus serving as 'Son of Man' and 'Son of God' when explored in their full potential allows for Jesus to be all he can be in spirit and truth. An 'image' points to the reality-source or essence which it reflects. - so on this count all that matters is seeing Jesus as the reflection of 'God' (pick any Christological view that is most rational to you respecting the Lord).

Adding to Brother Kel's video earlier, here is John Schoenheit adding his insights -

Meta-tation:

In my 'meta-tation' addendums, I will share additional points expanding the metaphysical discussion or subject to more universal proportions, adding ideas and concepts from other source materials, traditions and schools of thought. I would like to add here, that the Urantia Book has its own peculiar Christology, and does support the mystery of the 'hypostatic union' and teaches that Jesus is indeed a divine Son that incarnated here, but that he is of an order of 'Creator Sons' who proceed forth from The Father, these divine Sons create local universes of space and time, and are as 'God' to their respective creations, being Creator-Sons. So Jesus according the UB is our Creator-Son, so is as to us our 'Creator' (or God, Savior, Lord) who won complete sovereignty over the fallen angelic powers thru his devotion to the Universal Father by doing his will, then triumphing over all thru his death, burial, resurrection and ascension. So while Jesus is 'God' to us,...he is still subordinate to The Universal Father of all, who is the First Source and Center of all things and beings. Here is presented a divine hierarchal system of God and his divine Sons active in the work of creation, evolution and the eternal progression of life in all cycles and phases. - and creation and regeneration of worlds continues on, from within the infinity and eternity of The One Life. Again, just another expanded more cosmically concentric Christology if you will