The Meaning of the Term "Son of God"

[freelight]

Does Jesus' current body have mass?

If Jesus has any bodily shape or form as we speak, we assume there is some kind of 'density' to it. This is all I will say for now, as such is a matter of scriptural references, metaphysics and one's own spiritual intelligence to consider. Beyond that its a matter of speculation, opinion and assumption. What do you think?

 

[daqq]

I take what is said here in the normal way of reading things in the real world:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

I also take the following words of Thomas spoken to the Lord Jesus in the normal way of reading things in the real world:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

I think that it is you who reads these verses outside of the normal way of reading things in the real world.

#1) When the Son of man comes will he find faith in your land?
#2) Nope, I'm not talking about myself or calling myself the Son of man in comment #1.
#3) Boiyoiyoiyoiyoing . . . you lose.

 

[daqq]

Not necessarily,....since he did indeed call God his Father, and ONLY ever claimed to be the 'Son of God', which is why he corrected them by quoting Psalm 82 later in chapter 10. Read the chapter in context to see what Jesus was saying. The Jews falsely claimed Jesus was making himself 'God', something Jesus did not claim for he honored his Father, - he showed them that calling himself the 'Son of God' was not blasphemous, since judges/rulers in days of old were in fact called 'gods' (elohim),...and sons of the most High. Therefore, he was NOT blaspheming, this was Jesus defense, from the scriptures. He corrected them on that note, while showing them that to be called the Son of God was not blasphemy, since God his Father sent him as His messenger and prophet to the people, to proclaim his word, to DO His will.

Furthermore as we consider these passages in John,....note that Psalm 82 calls these human judges 'gods' (elohim) and sons of the most High. -


Psalm 82

God takes His stand in [a]His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? [c]Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 [d]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.

- NASB

Notice that these judges were called sons of God. This challenges your OP's position that only Jesus is called the Son of God, since other humans also are recognized as 'sons' of God. Let us look at more examples -

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

-Luke 3:37-38

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

-Matt. 5:9

35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

-Luke 20:35-37

~*~*~

So we see, that if you want to say that using the term 'son' of God indicates that these 'sons' have the nature of 'God', then you have to assume by your example or rule, that these human beings are 'elohim' (gods) and sons of the Most High. - unless there are exceptions to the rule

Going back to your quoted passage in John, where the Jews were claiming that he was claiming to be God, lets skip to chapter 10 -

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

So,....we do see others being called sons of God, even Adam, and judges/rulers in the OT, even before Jesus coming. We also have those born from above in the Spirit as partakers of the divine nature, after the Jesus ascended and the spirit of truth being poured out, being called sons of God. These 'sons' are not 'God' himself, but the offspring of God, generated by God in one way or another, in any given dispensation. The term 'Son of God' in Jesus case is special and unique because of his rank, position and status as the Christ, and even though his specialized 'sonship' by his miraculous birth, divine anointing at his baptism or some other special event or transformation, sealed the fullness of his 'sonship'.....he is still the Son of God, and by way of sonship is subordinate to his God and Father, even if we hold a special and unique divinity or human-divine confusion of the Son,.....ever a Son he remains. It goes without saying that if we honor the Father we will certainly honor the Son, for the Father and Son are inseperable testimonies of one another, - and our own sonship with God is invested and secured therein.

Good points,

And when it is said in the Psalm, "I have said", (you are Elohim), it also means it was previously said or implied somewhere else. And where might that have been already said or implied? It must be somewhere in the Torah, eh?

Both the Hebrew and the Septuagint read as past tense, "I have said", or "I did say".

Psalm 82:6 KJV
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalm 82:6 YLT
6 I--I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High--all of you,

Psalm 82:6 (81:6) LXX-Septuagint Brenton Translation
6 (81:6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High.

Also the footnote from your quote of the NASB says the following:

Footnotes:
d. Psalm 82:6 Lit I, on my part
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+82&version=NASB

Perhaps because it is "Ani amartiy" which the YLT recognizes in the quote above with the rendering, "I--I have said", because it more literally means "I Myself have said". This strongly implies even more so that it has already been said in the Torah.

Elohim is not Elohim of the dead but of the living: that is why at the burning bush He says, "I am Elohey [of?] your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitzhak, and Elohey Yaakob", and Moshe hid his face because he was afraid to look upon ha-Elohim, ("the Elohim"). :chuckle:

Abraham, Isaak, and Yakob are not dead, and neither is Yeshua. One thing Abraham, Isaak, and Yakob all have in common is that the Word of HaShem had come to them each in his own appointed times, (Gen 15:1, Gen 26:23-25, Gen 32:1, Gen 32:30, Psalm 82:6-7, John 10:34-35).

Here it is transliterated so that anyone may see that what I said is correct:

Exodus 3:6 Hebrew Transliterated
6 way·yō·mer, ’ā·nō·ḵî ’ĕ·lō·hê ’ā·ḇî·ḵā, ’ĕ·lō·hê ’aḇ·rā·hām ’ĕ·lō·hê yiṣ·ḥāq wê·lō·hê ya·‘ă·qōḇ; way·yas·têr mō·šeh pā·nāw, kî yā·rê, mê·hab·bîṭ ’el- hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/transliterated/exodus/3.htm

"’ā·nō·ḵî ’ĕ·lō·hê ’ā·ḇî·ḵā, ’ĕ·lō·hê ’aḇ·rā·hām ’ĕ·lō·hê yiṣ·ḥāq wê·lō·hê ya·‘ă·qōḇ"
"I am Elohey [of?] your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitzhak, and Elohey Yaakob"

"kî yā·rê, mê·hab·bîṭ ’el- hā·’ĕ·lō·hîm"
"because he was afraid to look toward the Elohim" (ha·Elohim : the Elohim-Angels)

And there remains a question, (which I have noted in the above with a question mark).
Should the statement from Exodus 3:6 be understood as follows?

"I am Elohey your Father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitzhak, and Elohey Yaakob"

If so then Abraham, Isaak, and Yaakob are IN HIM and therefore live, (and they are called Elohim).
And of course Jerry was in that thread also at the same time and no doubt saw these posts.

 

[daqq]

No, just taking a more liberal approach to the many faces and tongues of the Divine, the exclusive nature of labels tend to corral the Spirit in a cultural box canyon.
I like you're approach and you have some good points so just stating an opinion on the exclusive nature of cultural programming through words/sounds that tend to breed the very thing "you thought was my motive".

Do you see what just happened above Zeke?
If I quoted a typical English rendering of Exodus 3:6 I know I would be lying:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

And that is quite clear by the fact that four times the definite article is inserted where it does not exist in the text, and yet, in the one place where the definite article is indeed found, (at the very end, "ha-Elohim"), it has been removed. So it is not so much Yiddish as it is more of a transliteration language in an attempt to keep out error.

 

[jamie]

If Jesus has any bodily shape or form as we speak, we assume there is some kind of 'density' to it. This is all I will say for now, as such is a matter of scriptural references, metaphysics and one's own spiritual intelligence to consider. Beyond that its a matter of speculation, opinion and assumption. What do you think?

I think Paul said there is a natural body and there is a supernatural body.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)​

A natural body is based on atoms, the building blocks of nature. A natural body has mass and is subject to entropy.

A supernatural body does not have structure based on atoms, it is based on energy and has no mass and no decay.

It has been amply demonstrated that mass can be converted to energy, yes amply demonstrated.

The correlation between mass and energy has been defined as the amount of energy is equal to the amount of mass times the speed of light squared.

As you can see, a small amount of mass can yield an unbelievable amount of energy.

So there is a mass body (a natural body) and there is an energy body which has no mass and is supernatural. We can think of this body as incorruptible and not subject to the laws of nature or the restrictions of nature.

The supernatural body has life inherent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi JS,

I've treated John 8:58 many times in the past. An aquaintence (Chandler who was a JW) and I already had 2 threads on this very passage (this was years ago, the threads are no longer extant). First of all,...'ego eimi' is a common greek phrase simply denoting one's identity, in common parlance of "I am he", as it is often rendered.

Yes, but it can also be correctly translated "I Am." Add that to the fact that the Lord Jesus used those words in such a way as to put His existence before Abraham and the Jews certainly understood Him to be claiming to be God in the flesh!

And that is why they wanted to kill Him!

 

[steko]

Yes, but it can also be correctly translated "I Am." Add that to the fact that the Lord Jesus used those words in such a way as to put His existence before Abraham and the Jews certainly understood Him to be claiming to be God in the flesh!

And that is why they wanted to kill Him!

:thumb:

Exactly!

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.- LXX

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[daqq]

:thumb:

Exactly!

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.- LXX

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exactly WRONG, lol, nowhere is ὁ ὤν ever rendered as "I am" by any competent scholar or team of scholars as far as I know. Can you please give at least one example where it is rendered as you imply by way of your English rendering? Or are you simply quoting Exodus 3:14 from some English translation of the Hebrew text? One may render it the way you have it from the Hebrew text, (which still does not make that rendering necessarily correct), but not from the Greek LXX which you have quoted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Exactly WRONG, lol, nowhere is ὁ ὤν ever rendered as "I am" by any competent scholar or team of scholars as far as I know. Can you please give at least one example where it is rendered as you imply by way of your English rendering?

"From now on, I tell you before it happens, that when it happens, you may believe that I AM" (Jn.13:9; HNV).​

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

Of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

 

[daqq]

"From now on, I tell you before it happens, that when it happens, you may believe that I AM" (Jn.13:9; HNV).​

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

Of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

You could not answer what I asked of Steko who implied something which appears to be false?
Additionally both of those places you quoted have εγω ειμι, (not "ο ων").

 

[daqq]

"From now on, I tell you before it happens, that when it happens, you may believe that I AM" (Jn.13:9; HNV).​

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

Of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

Also, I have no problem understanding that passage because I do believe what Yeshua says when he quotes Isaiah 61:1-2a and what he says about it just after his immersion and wilderness trials, in Luke 4:17-21. If you had believed what things have already been explained here and elsewhere you would also know the true answer and who it is who speaks through the man Yeshua, and again, the name is Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1:2, Matthew 3:16, and Romans 8:9, where Paul equates Ruach Elohim with Ruach Meshiah, (πνευμα θεου = πνευμα χριστου, (both phrases being intentionally anarthrous because of Genesis 1:2 LXX)).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You could not answer what I asked of Steko who implied something which appears to be false?
Additionally both of those places you quoted have εγω ειμι, (not "ο ων").

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)" (Jn.8:58).​

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

in all three instances the Greek words ἐγώ εἰμί are used.

And of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

 

[daqq]

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)" (Jn.8:58).​

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί)," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

in all three instances the Greek words ἐγώ εἰμί are used.

And of course some of them went backward and fell to the ground because they were startled and shaken when He said, "I AM."

For what other reason would they fall to the ground?

That has nothing to do with what Steko posted and how I responded to Steko, which response of mine you then quoted and used what I said to jump into your opposite point about εγω ειμι, (not "ο ων", which was what I spoke of which was mistranslated in Steko's post). However I learned a new song which the Master taught me from the passage you have now added to your quotes, (John 8). The song includes Matthew 5:1-16 for all the little rams, lambs, and arnia, and it goes somewhat like this:

Yeshua Says, You are the light of the world:
A city (of seven congregations) that is set on a the mountain of Elohim cannot be hidden.
(In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

Next Line:
Yeshua Says, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in darkness:
But shall have the Light of Life, (in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

Next Line:
For if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ― , you will die in your sins.

(And they understood that he did not complete the phrase, so they said, You are who?)

Next Line:
"I am ― ― , I am ― ― ― ― ― , in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen."

Next Line:
"Amen, truly I say unto you, before Abraham is finished, I am ― ― , I am ― ― ― ― ― ,
In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen", (Genesis 22:13-14).

For all the little rams, lambs, and arnia . . .

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Joh 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Joh 18:7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

People will distort almost anything to prove their religion they follow blindly.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That has nothing to do with what Steko posted and how I responded to Steko,

Why do you think that those who heard the Lord Jesus "went backward and fell to the ground?:

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

 

[Zeke]

Do you see what just happened above Zeke?
If I quoted a typical English rendering of Exodus 3:6 I know I would be lying:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

And that is quite clear by the fact that four times the definite article is inserted where it does not exist in the text, and yet, in the one place where the definite article is indeed found, (at the very end, "ha-Elohim"), it has been removed. So it is not so much Yiddish as it is more of a transliteration language in an attempt to keep out error.

Still words are an outer understanding to a inward revelation Galatians 1:12 that transcends the ability of the intellect, words are only worth what the perceived have been instructed to understand them by, others can hear the phonics/sound of a word yet be clueless to the meaning while the inward revelation leaves no doubt and bypasses the cultural bias of religions and their nationalistic prejudice.

We agree in most areas yet I still see a bias toward the Hebrew portrayal of GOD as the only viable path, maybe God became a Hebrew to win them over seeing that Divine foundation built all cultural beliefs that pointed to the same inward bridal closet.

 

[daqq]

Why do you think that those who heard the Lord Jesus "went backward and fell to the ground?:

"They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said to them, "I AM," they went backward, and fell to the ground" (Jn.18:5-6; HNV).​

I just explained my understanding to you.
Why can you not hear what I said to you from the scripture?

Also, I have no problem understanding that passage because I do believe what Yeshua says when he quotes Isaiah 61:1-2a and what he says about it just after his immersion and wilderness trials, in Luke 4:17-21. If you had believed what things have already been explained here and elsewhere you would also know the true answer and who it is who speaks through the man Yeshua, and again, the name is Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1:2, Matthew 3:16, and Romans 8:9, where Paul equates Ruach Elohim with Ruach Meshiah, (πνευμα θεου = πνευμα χριστου, (both phrases being intentionally anarthrous because of Genesis 1:2 LXX)).

Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the scroll of Isaiah the prophet: and when he had opened the scroll, he found the place where it was written:
18 πνευμα κυριου is upon me, for He has anointed me to preach the good message to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised:
19 To preach the acceptable year of κυριου.
20 And he closed the scroll, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down: and the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened upon him.
21 And he commenced, saying unto them, This day is this scripture-writing fulfilled in your ears!

Isaiah 61:1-2a
1 Ruach Adonai YHWH is upon me, for YHWH has mashach-anointed me to announce the good message unto the meek; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening [of the eyes] to those bound:
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH:

κυριος (anarthrous) = YHWH
πνευμα κυριου (anarthrous) = Spirit of YHWH

Genesis 1:2 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering [rachaph] on the face of the waters,

H7363 רָחַף rachaph (raw-chaf') v.
1. to brood.
2. (by implication) to be relaxed.
[a primitive root]
KJV: flutter, move, shake.

Also, in the above, Ruach Elohim has no article, (anarthrous), and the Hebrew language does not tolerate an article with a personal pronoun, (a personal name). This strongly implies that Ruach Elohim is a personal pronoun, that is, a name. Ruach Elohim also displays corporeal attributes in the Genesis passage because Ruach Elohim is brooding or fluttering over the face of the waters, (like a dove), while the Father is non-corporeal and the heavens and the heavens of the heavens cannot contain Him.

Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and vacuous-void, and darkness was upon the face of the abyss: and Ruach Elohim brooded upon the face of the waters.

The LXX-Septuagint follows suit and leaves Ruach Elohim without an article in this passage:

Genesis 1:2 OG LXX
1:2 η δε γη ην αορατος και ακατασκευαστος και σκοτος επανω της αβυσσου και πνευμα θεου επεφερετο επανω του υδατος
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_001.htm

πνευμα θεου (anarthrous) = Ruach Elohim (anarthrous)

In the immersion account from Matthew we find the same anarthrous Name:

Matthew 3:16 W/H
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν ερχομενον επ αυτον

Matthew 3:16
16 And being immersed Yeshua went up straightway from the water: and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw Ruach Elohim descending as a dove, and coming upon him:

The anarthrous usage of the phrase, πνευμα θεου, (Ruach Elohim), is quite rare in the apostolic writings and for good reason because of its critical significance, (the only other place it is found is in 1 Cor 7:40 where Paul employs it once again). Therefore when Paul uses this phrase we do well to listen up and pay heed to what it means, and he tells us what it means to him in Romans 8:9 where, as I already said to you, he equates Ruach Elohim with Ruach Meshiah.

Romans 8:9 W/H
9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλα εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν ει δε τις πνευμα χριστου ουκ εχει ουτος ουκ εστιν αυτου

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in [of] flesh but in [of] Spirit, if so be that Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if any has not Ruach Meshiah, the same is not of him.

By default then, according to the above statement, Paul has equated Ruach Elohim with Ruach Meshiah. They are one and the same Spirit, Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1:2 and Ruach Meshiah, and again, both of these names are anarthrous just as found in the other places which I have already quoted: and the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:2 very strongly implies that Ruach Elohim is a personal pronoun, that is, a Name. That one broods over the face of the waters like a dove and that one is the Son of YHWH, even Wisdom, for in Messiah there is neither male nor female, (or in other words both).

πνευμα θεου (anarthrous) = Ruach Elohim - Genesis 1:2 - Matthew 3:16
πνευμα θεου (Ruach Elohim) = πνευμα χριστου (Ruach Meshiah) - Romans 8:9

 

[freelight]

More on John 8:58

More on John 8:58

Yes, but it can also be correctly translated "I Am." Add that to the fact that the Lord Jesus used those words in such a way as to put His existence before Abraham and the Jews certainly understood Him to be claiming to be God in the flesh!

And that is why they wanted to kill Him!

Yes JS,

But in other instances of 'ego eimi' where Jesus indicates that he is the one being spoken of, the translaters render it "I am (he)', they supply the 'he' in italics to render a complete sense of how this is being used 'in context'. See The context of Mark 14: 61-62

61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and [a]saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

We note that 'ego eimi' is often translated as 'I am (he)' or 'I am (Christ)' according to context -

And famous Trinitarian scholar Robert Young (Young's Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible) in explaining John 8:58 informs us that Christ was proclaiming Himself by the words (ego eimi) to be “the promised Messiah.” — (Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, p. 61, 1977 ed., Baker Book House)

The phrase “I am” (ego eimi) occurs many times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am Christ” or “I am he” or something equivalent. We find “I am Christ” in Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8 and Matthew 24:5. And “I am he (Christ)” in John 8:24, 28; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8 and Revelation 2:23, and “it is I (Christ)” in Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; Luke 24:39 and John 6:20. If these are parallel uses of ego eimi as many Trinitarians claim, then John 8:58 should be understood as “I am Christ.”

Note that in John 8:24, 28; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8 that is translated “I am he” that there is no predicate, just as John 8:58 has no predicate. The word “he” has been added by the translators to make it read correctly in English. In every instance Jesus is saying I am Christ. If the phrase in John 8:58 was translated “I am he” as per all the others, it would be easy to see that Christ was speaking of Himself as the Messiah, which He was, and would then be consistent throughout the New Testament.

- Source here

John 8:58is speaking of the importance of Abraham, but Jesus is saying he was before Abraham in importance in the mind and providence of God, being the promised Messiah. Jesus was the one he looked forward to. So there is a preeminence of Jesus recognized that is greater than Abraham. Jesus said just a few verses before 8:58..."Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” It would then be appropriate to translate 8:58 as "before Abraham came into existence, I am (he)",...meaning ' I'm the one whom Abraham saw', the promised Messiah.

It is possible as well to translate the passage to indicate a pre-existence of Jesus in some form, but some interpret this 'figuratively'. Even if we take a more Arian view here, Jesus as the firstborn of creation would have an existence before all creation, before all created beings. So a pre-existent Christ is a possible interpretation here, but Jesus pre-existence does not necessarily make him YHWH. Therefore a more or less Unitarian view can be had here. There is much more on this wonderful passage of course. I'm still exploring 'pre-existence' issues about Jesus. Whether Jesus existed as a spirit-being with God before his physical birth or just existed within the Mind of God from eternity are considered.

 

[daqq]

However I learned a new song which the Master taught me from the passage you have now added to your quotes, (John 8). The song includes Matthew 5:1-16 for all the little rams, lambs, and arnia, and it goes somewhat like this:

Yeshua Says, You are the light of the world:
A city (of seven congregations) that is set on a the mountain of Elohim cannot be hidden.
(In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

Next Line:
Yeshua Says, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in darkness:
But shall have the Light of Life, (in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

Next Line:
For if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ― , you will die in your sins.

(And they understood that he did not complete the phrase, so they said, You are who?)

Next Line:
"I am ― ― , I am ― ― ― ― ― , in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen."

Next Line:
"Amen, truly I say unto you, before Abraham is finished, I am ― ― , I am ― ― ― ― ― ,
In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen", (Genesis 22:13-14).

For all the little rams, lambs, and arnia . . .

John 8:12-25
12 Again therefore Yeshua spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said to him, You bear witness of yourself; your witness is not true! [for they remembered what he said in John 5:31 and tried to turn it against him]
14 Yeshua answered and said to them, Even if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true; for I know from where I came, and to where I go: but you know not from where I come, or to where I go.
15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16 But even if I do judge, my judgment is true; for not alone am I, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 Moreover, even in your own law, it is written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am he that testifies concerning my own, and the Father that sent me testifies concerning me [by the works which are done].
19 They said therefore to him, Where is your Father? Yeshua answered, You know neither me, nor my Father: if you had known me, you would have known my Father also.
20 These words he spoke in the treasury as he taught in the temple: and no one seized him, for his hour was not yet come.
21 He said therefore again to them, I go away, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: to where I go, you are not able to come.
22 The Yhudim therefore said, Will he kill himself? because he says, "To where I go, you are not able come"?
23 And he said to them, You are from below; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am [― ― ― ― ―], you will die in your sins.
25 They said therefore to him, You are who? [because they understood that he did not complete the "I am" statement] Yeshua said to them, That which I also spoke to you at the beginning! [John 8:12 - I am the light of the world]

Next Line:
Yeshua Says, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in darkness:
But shall have the Light of Life, (in the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen).

Next Line:
For if you believe not that I am the light of the world, you will die in your sins.

:sheep:

 

[jamie]

Time is a way to measure history so we can relate to a point in history where something or someone existed.

To exist is to be, and the meaning of the verb varies in accordance with the subject. For example: she is, we are, they were, I am - these all define an existence in history.

In John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

In other words, Jesus claimed he existed at a point in time prior to Abraham. The Jews were incredulous, they were stunned. Not because Jesus existed but because he claimed he existed before Abraham, the inference being self-existence and non-death. To them he was claiming to be YHVH.