This coming from someone who would rather have "low" recidivism rates than 0% recidivism rate.
If you have to make up a story about what I think, it's probably a hint that you got things wrong. I'm pointing out that killing murderers is counterproductive, leading to more innocent people being killed.
So you're calling God a liar?
Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:21
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy21:21&version=NKJV
If the nation fears death, criminals will not commit crimes for fear of being put to death.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. - Romans 13:3-4
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:3-4&version=NKJV
It's JUST AS WRONG to put an innocent to death as it is to let a guilty person go free.
It's much worse. Blackstone's forumulation, a basic principal of British and American jurisprudence:
In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation (also known as Blackstone's ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle that:
"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",
...as expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.
Historically, the details of the ratio have varied, but the message that government and the courts must err on the side of innocence has remained constant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_formulation
No, they're both equally evil. God condemns both the same, because both profane Him.
And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread,
killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel13:19&version=NKJV
Barbarian, citing over a hundred people condemned to death, who happened to be cleared before they were killed:
As I have said before, that is a RESULT of our current system.
If we replace the current system with one that is good and righteous, then that RESULT will not be present.
But the state often condemns the innocent to death. Which doesn't bother you.
Yes, it bothers us enough to want to do something about it, such as replacing our current system.
But not enough to stop it, it seems.
Because we have a republic form of government, where no progress can be made towards good because the majority is evil.
I don't understand people who are so eager to kill that they would kill innocent people in order to execute murderers.
I don't understand them either.
And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel13:19&version=NKJV
Every state with a death penalty has ended up sentencing innocent people to death.
Again, a result of the system we have, not the punishment itself. God's judgments are just.
He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He. - Deuteronomy 32:4
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy32:4&version=NKJV
And we only know about the relatively few, who managed to play the appeals process long enough for someone to get evidence showing them to be innocent. How many others were wrongly killed by the state is unknown.
:idunno:
All I know is...
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV
That's why we want the death penalty, so that the number of total people going through the system drops,
Killing to stop killing seems to be a rather self-defeating process. As you see, states that kill murderers end up with higher murder rates.
And this is why I said:
"This coming from someone who would rather have "low" recidivism rates than 0% recidivism rate."
If you rightly kill a murderer, he cannot commit any more crimes. That inherently reduces crime. Less crime means more resources can be devoted to other crimes, which leads to more criminals being caught, and less innocent people caught up, which leads to more punishments for other criminals, etc, ad nauseum.
However, if you don't kill a murderer, he will most likely go on to kill again. Which results in more crime.... You get the idea (I hope).
so that there is less chance of an innocent person being condemned for something he didn't do.
This comes from a person who would rather have low rates of innocent people killed by the state than a rate of 0%.
Incorrect. I would rather have ZERO innocent people killed, though I recognize that no system is perfect, because man is not perfect, and men are inherently part of any justice system, but that God's system is better than any man's, and if we do what God says to do, instead of what man wants to do to to "one-up" God.
Remember what I said about jury trials and no responsibility of judges?
Those two things alone (let alone the countless other reasons) make our current system so inefficient that the people groan.
It's JUST AS WRONG to put an innocent to death as it is to let a guilty person go free.
No, it's much, much worse. It means the state kills innocent people.
No, Barbarian. Putting innocent people to death is a result of a bad justice system, not a result of a respect for God's laws or His statement...
And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel13:19&version=NKJV
See, the problem with that claim, that "the state often condemns the innocent to death" is a symptom of a high crime rate,
Violent crime is near historic lows in America. C'mon.
You apparently haven't been paying attention to the news lately, nor do you look far back enough.
Since 1960, the lowest rate for "violent crime" (per 100k people) was in 1961, at a rate of 158.1.
The lowest violent crime rate recently was in 2014, but it was MUCH higher than it was in '61, at 361.1. (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States)
So no, violent crime is NOT near historic lows in America.
And I haven't even looked earlier than 1960...
jury trials (justice by committee),
North Korea sure doesn't have the problem. I don't think you'd like the way it works.
North Korea is a nation who imprisons it's citizens. And you're attempting to compare it to America?
no responsibility on the part of the judges, etc.
. . .
If judges would actually judge, and take responsibility for their judgments, they wouldn't make as many mistakes in their judgments.
God guarantees that if you have a death penalty (and a properly implemented one, at that) for capital crimes, the people will respect the law and government, and not act presumptuously.
But you can't show us where He said it? I think I know why.
I did show you. The three passages below say it almost explicitly.
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV
Nothing there says anything about killing a criminal.
No, but it does speak about punishing criminals swiftly, and that because a nation does not, men are not deterred from committing crime.
Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel.And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously. - Deuteronomy 17:12-13
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy17:12-13&version=NKJV
Nor does that.
Yeah, it does.
The man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the authority (who is God's minister), He should be put to death, because he doesn't respect the authorities. By putting him to death, the people will fear (the healthy kind) the government, and they won't act presumptuously.
I watched a video about a year ago of a woman who had committed some crime (I don't remember the details), and when she was brought before the judge, she openly mocked the judge. That sort of thing
should not happen. And yet, because we don't have the death penalty appropriately implemented, things like that are COMMON.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Nor does that. If you have to add to scripture to make your point, that's an important clue.
First of all, please show me what I have added to scripture. Otherwise, drop the false accusation.
Second, This passage is Paul affirming the authority of the government to execute criminals, and that only criminals fear a good government, but the innocent fear a bad one.
In our current system, the innocent fear being caught up in the system that is supposed to protect them.
Did you notice that Paul says "for he (the government) does not bear
the sword in vain"? A sword isn't used for beating. It's used for killing.
Killing who? Criminals who have committed crimes worthy of death.
Funnily enough, imposing the death penalty for murderers has a 0% recidivism rate.
Executing an innocent man also makes sure he never commits a crime.
It's also a result of our current system.
God's system seeks to eliminate such occurrences, so we should implement HIS system, and remove ours.
Killing innocent people who belong to groups that have a statistical indication of violence would work even better. You sure you want to make that argument?
Do not do evil, that good may come.
And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:8
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:8&version=NKJV
Not one of them will ever murder again if they are put to death for their crimes.
. . .
You can't get around this, can you?
If a murderer is executed justly, then he will not murder more, but instead awaits God's judgment.
I'll take the 0% recidivism rate over your "low" recidivism rate.
At the cost of higher murder rates and the killing of innocent people. How many innocent people would you be willing to have the state execute in order to kill murderers?
A percentage would be sufficient. How many?
0% innocent wrongly executed.
0% guilty wrongly let go.
God's system strives towards this. Our current system does not.
Again, the reason that the number of innocents being put through the system is so high is that it is a result of having no death penalty, among other things. If you have a death penalty that is swiftly executed, and not like it is today,
If that were the case, most of those hundred or so people wrongly condemned to death, would be dead today. Is that what you would prefer? They were ultimately exonerated only because of the lengthy appeals process. And you'd take that away from them, dooming them.
If my statement were the case, then we wouldn't have the innocent being caught up in the system in the first place, and the government wouldn't have to deal with the level of crime we have today. And EVEN IF an innocent person was caught in the system, the judge would not make a hasty decision, because he would not be pressured by the overwhelming number of cases on the docket that day, because they wouldn't exist. Those hundred or so people in your example would not have been convicted wrongly in the first place, because if they had been, and then later it had been found out that the judge convicted them wrongly, the judge would be held accountable. With our current system, there's no punishment for handing down a sentence to the wrong person, because the judge just points at the jury, which no longer exists as the members have already faded into the faceless crowd.
people will not act presumptuously, and crime rates will plummet.
The data show a different result. In the 1800s, when appeals were very short, or nonexistent, there were far more murderers. Would you like me to show you that?
Actually, if you could provide me (us?) with a link to the violent crime rates since 1776 to 1950 or '60, that would be helpful. I can't seem to find anything on that. Even by decade would help.
Therefore less crime, and therefore fewer people going through the system, and therefore less chance of an innocent person being caught up in it.
. . .
...
