The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Quote:c.mooreSorry if I miss you questions and if I do just remind me , because i would what my questions answered as well. So I will according to your verse you ask in Matt 25 which was recordedin the time 4 bc-ad 33 and this was something said by Jesus so it`s before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift there at that time to my understanding I must say the truth YES. What are you going to compare this with Kevin, because I see where your coming from but it won`t work out the way you think it is. We live in a grace time, and mercyful time, and the favor of God is on alot of believer and unbelievers.



I've got you. It is you who are decieved. You really think this happened before the death on the cross? Guess again! Take a look at the whole thing in context, starting at Matt. 25:31. Its says:

Matt: 25: 31-32
31) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepard divides his sheep from the goats.

Verses 31 all the way up to verse 46, which includes the people spoken of whom you admit were cast into hell because of their lack of good works, happens on the day of Judgement! Tell me, C.Moore, has Jesus come with all His angels, and has He separated the sheep from the goats yet?! NO! Jesus is clearly speaking about what will happen in the day of Judgement, which has NOT happened yet!

Quote c.moore
I think you missunderstood what I am saying.
Look, is Jesus speaking in Matt 25?
Has Jesus died already when he was saying this? Of course not
I said the favor and grace is on the unbeliever and believer is because I know we are his chosen people before the creation of the earth and God knows already those unbelievers that will be His sheeps and the grace will be on the believers to want to do the works and will of God. God already knows who will never believe, when He comes in His glory to judge.











Quotec.moore:What does this Spiritual baptism mean to you ; and is it more or less important than the natural water flesly baptism?


Quote Kevin


Well, there's falling of the Holy Spirit which gives the recipient the ability to do miraculous things. Examples of this can be found in Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44.

Then there's the baptism that Jesus commanded in the Great Commission- the baptism of the Lord. It uses water (Acts 10:47) and also gives the one being baptized the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, Acts 19:1-5). It is the baptism of the Lord which forgives sins, therefore that is the "important" baptism. It's the baptism practiced by the apostles.

Quote c.moore
What comes first the Spiritual baptism of ther blood of JESUS OR THE WATER BAPTISM?
Let`s look at the Holy tabernacle for instance, is entering the Holy`s of Holy`s less important then the outer court ?






.


Quote kevin

Errr... "Natural worship"?

Quote c.moore
Natural worship is using traditional religious rituals, without the heart just religious ways and thinking.


Quotec.moore:Another example I forgot that I just seen is sence I think I understand about your baptism is that everytime baptism is mention in the bible you think it means water baptism , and when you get baptized it must be in the name of Jesus am I correct?


Quote Kevin

I believe that everytime the baptism in the name of the Lord is mentioned, it is speaking of water baptism (Acts 10:47-48). And yes, one must be baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Quote c.moore
Does it matter if it is in the name of the Lord, or God, or Just the Holy Spirit?
I believe all three names is God so I can use in the name of God also according to M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Again, what does the cleaning of sins, The spiritual baptism in the name of the Lord????




Quotec.moore:This is why freak,RevLeonard,Jerry, and myself see different than you, because we are in the spiritual world and in the spirtual understanding of God and his wisdom according to 1Co:2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory


Quote kevin

The baptism of the Lord definitely has a spiritual purpose... it's for the forgiveness of sins and allowing us to be reborn... walking in the newness of life. (Romans 6) Its what allows us to be alive to God in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:11). Definitely a spiritual purpose.
Quote c.moore
When does this take place, allowing us to be reborn, before we go into the water or after the natural baptism?
I know that we are the temple of God and The Holy Spirit can live in us so when we are washed by the blood of Jesus, so when does this blood washing take place?
Do we have to do like the muslims wash our feets and hands before praying and exepting the Lord or does the Lord looks at our hearts?

Let God bless you
peace

 

[c.moore]

look ; Brother kevin at Joh:4:13: Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh:4:14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh:4:15: The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

what water do you think this is that Jesus is talking about ?

Is this the natural water that she draws or is this a spiritual water?

if you say this is a spiritual water that flows from the inside of us then you can discern the same with the baptism.
the same way this is revealed about a natural thirst and a spirtual thirst is the same way we know about the baptism kevin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You say that "faith" cannot be all that is required for salvation because "even demons believe".

Yes,Kevin,the demons have been around for thousands of years,and they were here to see the Lord perform His miracles and to see Him actually be resurrected and ascend into heaven.Is there any wonder that they believe?

Don´t you realize that the "gospel" is for men,and not for the demons?

"That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,but have eternal life"(Jn.3:15).

Do you think that the "whoever" in this verse refers to "demons" as well as men?

Now,do you not believe that we are saved by grace?If you do believe that,then you know that "if by grace it is no more of works"(Ro.11:6).

But you must not believe that quote of Paul,because you do believe that the sinner is justified by "works" before God.I am continually amazed at the amount of Scripture that you are willing to ignore in order to have your rite of water baptism.

The verses you quote out of James are in reference to "justification" before man.James says that Abraham was "justified" by works,and Paul explains that this justification of Abraham was NOT before God:

"For if Abraham was justified by works,he hath something of which to glory,but NOT BEFORE GOD"(Ro.4:2).

Next,in regard to your comments on Matthew 25:41-46.The reason that the "goats" did not give Him food or give Him drink was because they HAD NO FAITH.They did not recognize Him.If they would have had "faith" they would have recognized Him and given Him food.Again,it comes doewn to "faith".

Next,you ask why the Lord would tell the Jews one thing for salvation and then change it?Well,at one time the Jews were to bring an animal sacrifice in order to have their sins remitted.Later,we see that they are told to be baptized in water for the remission of sins.Then even later they are told to believe in Him for the remission of sins.This is called PROGRESSIVE REVELATION!

Finally,I will ask you a question.At Antioch in Pisida the Apostle Paul preaches the gospel to the Jews.His preaching to them covers TWENTY FIVE VERSES.His sermon was not interrupted.He tells them that THOSE WHO BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED FROM ALL THINGS!

He never says that in order to receive remission of sins it is necessary to submit to the rite of "water baptism".

If "water baptism" is necessary for salvation,why didn´t Paul mention it?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

Quote justAchristian

Here is some more to chew on. Its from a discussion with an unbeliever like you who trusted in his Faith Only and not the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. Its good material so savor it greatly!



Quote c.moore
First of all I am a believer, and I think we are brothers in the Lord JustAchristian, and If you have plead the blood over your life and Jesus is your personal savior that you trust, then we will meet in heaven one day. I think we all have different measures of faith, and some will find out that they have still baby faith carrying their milk bottle but we will have time in heaven to grow and learn the truth. I am saved and I have been spiritual and water baptized. Even I have washed feets, and helped the hungry and poor.
I believe fully on the cleasing of the blood of Jesus, but more in my heart and in a spiritual way with faith.The only different bettween us is that you think that water baptism is salvation, and I teach and preach salvation is trusting Jesus and beleiving , and repentance to be saved by faith only.


Quote justAchristian

It is arresting that you should say, and I quote, "The ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us..." when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).


Quote c.moore
Can you see your conscience?
Do you know what is meant when said ; by the resurrection ?


Quote JustAchristian

You said that in baptism we "pledge to God our lives." The problem with that statement is that the bible does not say that. It says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"


Quote c.moore
I didn`t say that, but I did say that we just accept the gift of salvation , and we just believe and trust God.
Really this verse is saying this verse :
Ro:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Quote JustAchristian
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM

Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)


Quote :c.moore

You said: There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism

Then if this is true what you say, then tell me what this mean to you sence you rightly divide the Word of God!
Ac:1:5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

What is this Holy Ghost baptism?

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Joh:1:33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Look the spirit must be in you to be alive in christ and this doesn`t happen by water, but by letting christ in your heart :
Ro:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Lu:3:16: John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Every sinner who now gets converted and believes the gospel receives the Holy Spirit, who then indwells him; simultaneously he is added as a member to the body of Christ which was formed on pentecost through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Eph:2:22: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



Quote JustAchristian


The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)



Quote c.moore
Look like they received the Holy Spirit before they got water baptized because the bible says : which have received the Holy Ghost meaning past tense they have already receieved, so this shows me we receive Jesus in us before we get water baptized and The Holy Spirit can not enter and live in somebody that is still a sinner or unbeliever.




At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.



Quote c.moore
Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Quote JustAchristain

Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.


Quote c.moore
Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
And what about Adam and Eve after eating the fruit?
Death also came after their sin, because sin is death sooner or latter any how.


Quote JustAchristian

When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion.



Quote c.moore
1Co:1:17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co:1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co:1:19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co:1:20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co:1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co:15:2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph:2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph:2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look at the word ordained and look up what it mean and see how much work you must do to get ordained.

Try to understand the we should walk in this verse.


Let God bless you

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

You said:
Of course I've obyed the words of Jesus... I've believed and been baptized to be saved, just as He said in Mark 16:16.

My reply:
The instructions of Christ after the cross were part of the new testament which was in force after the cross (Heb. 9:17) and are not to be confused with John the Baptist‘s testimony of water baptism for remission before the cross. It can be clearly seen that Jesus instructed the apostles to teach and that teaching will baptize all that believe. He did not command them to do the baptizing in "water".

Let's look at each account before Christ ascended in what He commissioned the apostles and heed God’s warning by not "adding" the word “water”.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev. 22:18 (KJV)

The commission must be understood in the light of the “new” testament “for” remission of sins (Matt. 26:28).
The apostles were commanded to baptize with the WORD!

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

Why would Christ send Paul NOT to baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize? There is no rhyme to this type of reasoning. Man’s doctrine teaches water baptism was commanded by Jesus in “the great commission” but this is not biblical terminology.

#1
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)

It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them. The word is spirit and it is by this word we are baptized...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). The quickening of the spirit (baptism) is immediate when the words of the new testament are believed. The new testament is a new testimony with a greater witness (John 5:33-36) for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) as opposed to the old testimony for remission (Mark 1:4).

The new testament is not a series of books starting with the four gospels but is a greater witness given by Christ and was not in force until after the death of Christ (Heb. 9:17). The apostles never baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost because this Spirit baptism is performed by Christ when we believe His words.
The contrast of the baptism in water and the baptism in the "word" is revealed by Jesus with these words...For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:5).


#2
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 (KJV)

Again, the teaching but also when one believes the word they are baptized by that word. This baptism (quickening) is received the moment one believes the word. This word of the gospel is spirit and life eternal in the new testament.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

#3
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46 (KJV)
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47 (KJV)

Christ said that remission of sins would be received through His death. He did not say remission would be in water baptism. The word of the "new" testament for remission of sins must be believed. Christ is clearly explaining how remission of sins would be received and referring to Isaiah 53 where “it is written” He was to suffer. These scriptures not once mention water baptism.

#4
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Christ speaks of the contrast of the two baptisms and confirms the "new baptism" will not be in water BUT Spirit! The contrast was further revealed in that the death of Christ for remission of sins superceded water baptism....But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He (John the Baptist) was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

By comparing scripture with scripture it is evident the commission was to preach the new testimony for sin remission and when one believes the words of this gospel of Christ they would be baptized by the Spirit. The confusion is had when men go against the warning of God and “ADD” the word “WATER” to the final words of Christ.

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

You said:
You have yet to prove the pentcostal era "VOID".

My reply:
The Pentecostal message (ACTS 2:38) granted remission of sins through obedience in water baptism.

You will NOT find these preached at Pentecost!

1-Christ died for their sins.

2-The blood of Christ was shed for sins.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? Rom. 10:16 (KJV)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 (KJV)
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom. 10:18 (KJV)
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Rom. 10:19 (KJV)
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. Rom. 10:20 (KJV)


Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1 Cor. 15:1 (KJV)
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1 Cor. 15:2 (KJV)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor. 15:3 (KJV)

V1 - Paul declares the "gospel" in which we stand.

V2 - He says if we do not believe it then we have believed in vain!

V3 - He says he was the first to deliver it and that "gospel is "Christ died for our sins".


We cannot assume a message is understood without scriptural "proof" and we certainly cannot "add" to the message what is not there for that truly is foolishness. Christ offered eternal life in this blood (John 6:54) to the apostles and it is verified with scripture that it was not understood. Their response was "who can here (believe) it" (John 6:60). It is clear the Pentecostal message does not contain the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins.

"His blood be on us" in that they had crucified the Messiah is a far cry from His blood has given eternal life to all who believe.

It was preached that Christ died and rose again but it was not revealed that it was the power of God unto salvation. It was reveal by Paul in this dispensation of grace.

Some would have us believe the preaching of the gospel is not limited to the written text and because a certain message is not record at Pentecost does not prove that message was not preached.

The written text is the gospel and there is no other and we are commanded not to"add" to the word. God has given explicit instructions on that subject!

The new testament is written with the blood of Christ for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28). Jesus explained that it could not be receive by the flesh but was to be received by the spirit...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV). This is so simple and yet so hard for many to understand that it is by faith and not by works of the flesh. Faith in works is not faith in Christ and the two are not to be confused. The testament indeed was "new" and it supercedes any and all testaments before it. This "new" testament was not understood by the apostles and thus we do not see it revealed by them at Pentecost. The first man to reveal this "new" testament "faith in His blood" for remission of sins was Paul (Rom. 3:25). We can not avoid the truth of the matter which the apostles did not understand that this new testament for remission of sins (Matt. 26:28) superceded the old testament for remission of sins which was water baptism (Acts 2:38).

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. Matt. 26:31 (KJV)

The offense of the cross is seen in the "works of the flesh" and they deny the power of God unto salvation contained in the “new“ testament for remission of sins.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom. 7:5 (KJV)
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6 (KJV)

We must defend the words of Jesus and not the actions and words of the apostles because it is clear the apostles did not discern the body of Christ!

Paul had this to say:
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph. 3:2 (KJV)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph. 3:3 (KJV)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph. 3:4 (KJV)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit Eph. 3:5 (KJV)

It says "now" revealed and by who? It says "my knowledge" (Paul's)! By what means? A "mystery" that is "now" revealed!

Paul was the first to reveal the "new" testament in the blood of Christ for remission of sins and it is clear and to the point for all who have ears to hear.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

You said

We live in a grace time, and mercyful time, and the favor of God is on alot of believer and unbelievers.

REALLY???? Could you please show me scripture supporting the idea that God's grace falls on unbelievers? Are you now saying that not only do you not have to obey God, but you don't have to believe in him, either, to obtain His grace?

Carri

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

You said:
Please. Don't you think that if Peter was not supposed to baptize them in water that God would have told him so? After all, it was the Holy Spirit that was guiding Peter into all truth. The falling of the Holy Spirit was merely a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were also part of the New covenant, nothing more. Why do you think the Jews were "astonished" to see this happen?

God did NOT tell Peter to baptize the Gentiles in water! It was Jesus that instructed Peter that the "flesh profiteth nothing" and that the "words" of the "new" testament would "quicken" them. It was God that interrupted Peter and the Holy Ghost fell "before" Peter could command water baptism. The cross removed the law but Peter could not let go of it!

The commission to the apostles was to preach the gospel to every creature but when instructed to go to a Gentile Peter said...
that it is an "unlawful" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Acts 10:28 (KJV)

Did Peter not know that the law was removed by the cross?

Why is it that God had to show Peter that Gentiles were accepted
did he not believe Jesus went instructed to preach the gospel to every creature?

Peter is still being progressively converted in his acceptance of the "new" testament message.

Paul confronts Peter at Antioch....But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14 (KJV)

Why is all this correction necessary even after the Holy Ghost fell at Pentecost if Peter is assumed by so many to have understood all things?

Well it seems to be as plain as the nose on your face that Peter was confused!

The Holy Spirit baptises "all" believers.

For by one Spirit are we "all" baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

The Jews were astonished to see unclean Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit because Gentiles were without the "law".

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

Galatians 5:19-21
19) Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentsions, heresies,
21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now tell me, did you see baptism, or any other thing that remotely hinted at baptism in those verses? I didn't.


My reply

"""selfish ambition"""" heresies"""" seditions""""

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)

Now tell me, did you see "water" baptism, or any other thing that remotely hinted at "water" baptism in those words? I didn't.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

System overload!!!

System overload!!!

Ok, I need to take a break. It's the same old stuff, different day. My words are falling on deaf ears. Until I get past this feeling of burn-out and frustration... I'm done for a while. I will close with a few remarks...

C.Moore,

I think you missunderstood what I am saying.
Look, is Jesus speaking in Matt 25?
Has Jesus died already when he was saying this? Of course not

I'm not misunderstanding anything, you just will not admit the obvious. Even going by your defense, didn't Jesus die so that sins could be forgiven?? Doesn't it include the forgiveness of sins that happened before the death on the cross? Well? It does according to Hebrews 9:15. So why wouldn't these people be forgiven since this supposedly happened before the death on the cross? Why would these people be cast into hell... were their sins not covered when Jesus died? Why do you think Jesus came and died? Think about it.

What we do know is that this is a future event. The nations WILL (future tense) be gathered before Him. Then Jesus WILL (future tense) gather them. Then they WILL (future tense) be judged. These events has not happened yet.

But really, when these sins were commited makes NO difference. If it happened before the cross, which it didn't, then their sins would be covered when Jesus died. If the sins happened after the cross, which they did, well, that just proves my argument, and apostle James's argument, that faith without works is dead, for it cost them their salvation. Either way, you lose.

-----------------

Jerry and Craig,

Your doctrines are based on "progressive revelations", which I don't believe to be supported by the bible.

Jude verse 3 clearly points out that the faith was:

• Deliverd ONE time
• Delivered for ALL the saints

It was delivered ONE time to ALL the saints... not one time to the Jews and then changed and delivered AGAIN to the Gentiles. That would go against this verse. It's not possible for the faith to be delivered ONE time for ALL people if people get TWO different messages.

And Hope - you really don't understand what the flesh is all about. Baptism is not a, in your words,: """selfish ambition"""" heresies"""" seditions""""

Anyway, I'm going into lurker mode for a while. Burn-out and frustration is a bad thing. But I'm sure you guys probably feel the same about me. It's too bad that religious discussions often turn into heated debates, and I'm sorry to all people if I've stepped on any toes.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by carri
C.Moore--

You said

REALLY???? Could you please show me scripture supporting the idea that God's grace falls on unbelievers? Are you now saying that not only do you not have to obey God, but you don't have to believe in him, either, to obtain His grace?

Carri

Quote:c.moore
Ac:2:45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Ac:2:46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Lu:2:52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

1Tm:1:9: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Tm:1:10: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Tm:1:11: According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Tm:1:12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Tm:1:13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Tm:1:14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Tm:1:15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Tm:1:16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Eph:4:7: But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph:4:8: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men

1Tm:2:4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tm:2:6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Praise God

 

[c.moore]

; Brother kevin at Joh:4:13: Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh:4:14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh:4:15: The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

what water do you think this is that Jesus is talking about ?

Is this the natural water that she draws or is this a spiritual water?

if you say this is a spiritual water that flows from the inside of us then you can discern the same with the baptism.
the same way this is revealed about a natural thirst and a spirtual thirst is the same way we know about the baptism kevin.

Churches and religious people just make their own doctrine out of Water baptism because they are not spritual, and if something else don`t attack their lies, and false teaching they agree like what I said about being thirsty being filled and flowing over.
I hope you can give me an answer on this Kevin and those that believe water baptism is salvation.

Let God Bless you
peace


__________________
I love finding understanding and knowledge. I love to study the bible.
with all my getting I want understanding prov 4:7.
Evangelist C.Moore

 

[JustAChristian]

c.moore, shame on you!

c.moore, shame on you!

Originally posted by c.moore
Quote :Jerry Shugart

I would say that anyone can find a word in the dictionary which gives them license to put words in the mouths of the Apostles,and thus justify teachings that are not there.In fact,by using your expression of speech named "synecdoche" it would be a simple matter to put all believers under the law of Moses by saying the same thing you said--that the expression "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" means to believe all and obey all the commandments which He uttered while He was on the earth.

And then it would be necessary to convince them that Cornelius was not saved until he was water baptized,even though he had his sins remitted,he believed in Christ,and the Holy Spirit fell on him before he was baptized in water.

Perhaps you can find a word in the dictionary that explains that also.

Quote c.moore

I think you have justAchristian on the run,and If you keep it up I think He might drop to his knees instead of always falling in the water.

praise God for you jerry , and stay under the anointing of God so you can break the religious demonic spirits . :up:

c.moore and Jerry, both will not accept external evidence even though Paul used external evidence in showing the Greeks at Athens they were too superstitious. He also mentioned their Poets in the same context (Acts). We'll have to allow for their lack of knowledge in applying truth and the use of external evidence. Maybe they will become for able to debate later.

Here is my post on why we should be baptized. I answered Jerry earlier, but maybe he missed it, and c.moore could use it at this time.

Immersion or Baptism as it has been interpreted, is a vital subject to discuss at any time, and I have chosen to briefly speak today on it's importance, for Jesus has given it prominence in the plan of salvation. Let's see what the Bible has to say about water baptism.

In the gospel of Mark, chapter 16 and verse 16 the Bible says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned" First we note that before someone is to be baptized, he or she must be a believer. That belief must be in the gospel of Jesus Christ which tell us He is God's Son, so one must believe that Christ is God's son. Second, we note that baptism is essential for salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" The apostle Peter tell us, ""The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). Peter plainly says that baptism saves. I have fullest confidence in what Peter has taught in other subjects, so I shouldn't doubt what he is teaching here, should I? Of course not! He preached baptism in Acts 2, and said that it us unto the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Then, when one is baptized in order to have their sins forgiven, then its the same as being saved. The "for" mentioned in Acts 2:38 is a preposition and in the Greek in which the New Testament was written, it is EIS and always looks forward--going into, etc. It never looks back to past events, so one is not baptized because his sins have been forgiven. Never be fooled on this subject.

Paul the apostle relates how Ananias, the preacher, told him as he was praying at Damascus (Acts.22:16) "And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" Paul must have done just that, and not argued one moment, for he went out preaching to and baptizing many who believed in Jesus Christ (Rom.6:1-4; Gal 3:27; Acts 19:1-7).

The church at Rome was taught the after being baptized, they were expected to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4) Why couldn't they walk in newness of life before baptism? If faith onlysaves, can't you walk in newness of life before baptism? Nop, its because newness of life comes only after being immersed into Christ.

Jesus taught that in order to be born again, one must be baptized saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" Jesus is merely saying that passing through the water, following the message of the Spirit through the word of God places us on the other side into salvation in the Kingdom of God. Like the Israelites, who had to cross the Red Sea and the Jordan river which are both "types of water baptism" we too must be baptized in order to enter into the kingdom of Christ Jesus.

Many try to say that depending on water baptism for salvation is "works salvation." I contend that it is obeying Christ (Heb.5:8-9) The preacher of the gospel, Titus said, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5) When one is baptized for the remission of sins, Christ give him the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). We cannot be justified by His grace without having our sins forgiven , and we cannot be forgiven until we have been baptized.

The act of believing and being baptized places us into the spiritual body of Christ (Rom. 6:3). We put on Christ, figuratively, as we would put on a garment, but its in the process of being water baptized (Gal 3:27) There is no other way to understand this passage.

In conclusion, let us see this final point for today. Being water baptized is necessary in order to obey God and walk in newness of life (Matthew 28:19; Acts 10:48; Romans 6:4) Listen again, it is NECESSARY in order to walk in newness of life. If faith only will allow walking in newness of life, why does the Bible say one must be immersed before there is newness of life? This is not JustAChristian's teaching on baptism, this is what the Bible teaches on the subject. You make the decision, for its so vital for salvation.

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

You forget to answer WHY would Paul preach the gospel to the Jews at Antioch Pisidia and NOT tell them that they MUST submit to a rite of "water baptism" for remission of their sins.Here,at Acts13:16-41 we have a complete text of the message Paul was speaking,and yet not even one word about remission of sins by water.

Next,in your last post you write:

"The act of believing and being baptized places us in the spiritual body of Christ (6:3).We put on Christ, figuratively,as we would put on a garment,but its in the process of being water baptized (Gal3:27)."

O really!

We are baptized into the body of Christ by a "water baptism".

Well,NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:

"For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

Where do you get the strange idea that it is by a "water baptism" that one is baptized into the body of Christ--especially since Scripture EXPLICITLY states that this operation of God is by the SPIRIT?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Jerry-

JustaChristian's focus is quite clear to all who read his posts. His message is this: Water saves.

This is utterly false as you have correctly pointed out. It is the Triune God-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that saves not something He has created.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

water might save something...like a fish maybe?

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

You forget to answer WHY would Paul preach the gospel to the Jews at Antioch Pisidia and NOT tell them that they MUST submit to a rite of "water baptism" for remission of their sins.Here,at Acts13:16-41 we have a complete text of the message Paul was speaking,and yet not even one word about remission of sins by water.

Next,in your last post you write:

"The act of believing and being baptized places us in the spiritual body of Christ (6:3).We put on Christ, figuratively,as we would put on a garment,but its in the process of being water baptized (Gal3:27)."

O really!

We are baptized into the body of Christ by a "water baptism".

Well,NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:

"For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

Where do you get the strange idea that it is by a "water baptism" that one is baptized into the body of Christ--especially since Scripture EXPLICITLY states that this operation of God is by the SPIRIT?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

You forget to answer WHY would Paul preach the gospel to the Jews at Antioch Pisidia and NOT tell them that they MUST submit to a rite of "water baptism" for remission of their sins.Here,at Acts13:16-41 we have a complete text of the message Paul was speaking,and yet not even one word about remission of sins by water.

Did Paul tell them specifically anything about the Lord's Supper? What about spiritual gifts? What about the 2nd coming of Christ? Not having a specific detailed context on a subject does not discount its importance. Paul did speake the same thing in all the churches as he tell us:

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.1 Cor. 7:17.

He told the Corinthians how to walk, and the Roman church and all the churches how to walk. You see, we take what he tells one church and use it for scripture to teach by. Isn't that how you do it, or do you just limit yourself to what Paul preached in antioch of Pisidia?

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1Cor. 14:33

God does not have one message for one church and another for another church. He does not cause confusion. The apostles followed the teachings of Christ explicidly (1 Cor 11:1), so what Paul and the apostles taught in one place was suridly taught in all the churches as long as there were apostles to teach.

"For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

Jerry, is the Holy Spirit the agent or element in baptism? Let me hear you on this before I answer.

Where do you get the strange idea that it is by a "water baptism" that one is baptized into the body of Christ--especially since Scripture EXPLICITLY states that this operation of God is by the SPIRIT?

From the Bible. The Ethopian Eunuch recognized water and ask what would hender him from being baptized. Paul taught the Galatians that we are baptized into Christ. Since the Ethopian Eunuch was baptized and knew nothing about Holy Spirit baptism, yet was able to rejoice and received no instruction from Philip on being Holy Spirit baptized, I conclude that when we are baptized in water, it is for the association of the Spiritual body of Christ. (Eph 1:22; Gal. 1:18). We are baptized into Christ and need not know of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-6).

Oh, by the way, did you find a scripture that teaches that we can walk in newness of life before we are immersed into Christ? (see Romans 6:3-5).

JustAChristian

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Is the knowledge of the Lord´s Supper nevessary for salvation?Is the knowledge of Spiritual things necessary for salvation?Is the knowledge of the second coming of Christ necessary for salvation?

Of course not!

The message that was preached to the Jews at Antioch in Pisidia was centered in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.Paul told them that it is He Who is preached into them "for the remission of sins":

"Be it known to you,therefore,man and brethren,THAT THROUGH THIS MAN is preached unto you forgiveness of sins;and by Him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified from all things..."(Acts13:38,39).

There is no mention here of "remission of sins" by submitting to a rite of "water baptism".

And even though you say that I am limiting the preaching of Paul to one synagogue,there is not even one instance in the Acts narrative where Paul ever says that "water baptism" is for the remission of sins!

Next,to your remarks that only one message was being preached.During the Acts period we can see that the Jews remained under the Law of Moses (Acts21:20) twenty-five years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.At the same time Paul was telling the churches made up of Jews and Gentiles that they "are not under the law,but under grace"(Ro.6:14).

How can you reconcile this difference?

Next,when we are "born again" it is apparent that we are "born,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,by the word of God,which liveth and abideth forever"(1Pet.1:23).

And in the same chapter and epistle that those words came from,Peter explains that the gospel is preached "with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven"(1Pet.1:12).

That is why the "gospel" is called the "living word":

"For our gospel came not to you in word only,but also in power,AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT"(1Thess.1:5).

The gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict men of their sinful condition and to quicken their dead souls.That is the meaning of the Lord´s words in the following verse:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The Words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Not only is the sinner convicted of his sin and given eternal life,he is also baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

And there are some that are saved that know nothing of either the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the baptism in water--for example,the thief on the Cross.

And no,we cannot walk in newness of life until we have been quickened by the Holy Spirit.

I hope I answered all your points.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JustAChristian]

No, you haven't answered all my points!

No, you haven't answered all my points!

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

Is the knowledge of the Lord´s Supper nevessary for salvation?Is the knowledge of Spiritual things necessary for salvation?Is the knowledge of the second coming of Christ necessary for salvation?

Of course not!

The message that was preached to the Jews at Antioch in Pisidia was centered in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.Paul told them that it is He Who is preached into them "for the remission of sins":

"Be it known to you,therefore,man and brethren,THAT THROUGH THIS MAN is preached unto you forgiveness of sins;and by Him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified from all things..."(Acts13:38,39).

There is no mention here of "remission of sins" by submitting to a rite of "water baptism".

And even though you say that I am limiting the preaching of Paul to one synagogue,there is not even one instance in the Acts narrative where Paul ever says that "water baptism" is for the remission of sins!

Next,to your remarks that only one message was being preached.During the Acts period we can see that the Jews remained under the Law of Moses (Acts21:20) twenty-five years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.At the same time Paul was telling the churches made up of Jews and Gentiles that they "are not under the law,but under grace"(Ro.6:14).

How can you reconcile this difference?

Next,when we are "born again" it is apparent that we are "born,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,by the word of God,which liveth and abideth forever"(1Pet.1:23).

And in the same chapter and epistle that those words came from,Peter explains that the gospel is preached "with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven"(1Pet.1:12).

That is why the "gospel" is called the "living word":

"For our gospel came not to you in word only,but also in power,AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT"(1Thess.1:5).

The gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict men of their sinful condition and to quicken their dead souls.That is the meaning of the Lord´s words in the following verse:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The Words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Not only is the sinner convicted of his sin and given eternal life,he is also baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

And there are some that are saved that know nothing of either the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the baptism in water--for example,the thief on the Cross.

And no,we cannot walk in newness of life until we have been quickened by the Holy Spirit.

I hope I answered all your points.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,
You haven't begun to answer all the points that I have made. Does believe encompass only faith separate and apart of repentance, confession, and baptism for the remission of sins?

It was not Paul's mission to preach only those things that pertained to the salvation of the soul. He told the elders at Ephesus that he "...shun not to declare all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:28). He preached the same thing in every church. As suridly as he preached forgivness of sins, he told how to obtain it. He used a synecdoche, even if you don't want to accept it, and that synecdoche "believe" is a part that stands for the whole.

Peter preached using the Holy Spirit to inspire him and guide him into all truth, but when the truth was completed, then "that which was in part" ( 1Cor. 13:8) was done away. Inspirational speaking by man has not happened since the 1st century. We have the complete counsel of God, the Perfect Law of Liberty to preach. It tells us that we are to go into all the world in every generation and preach the one gospel of salvation. Those that will believe it and obey it will be saved from their sins. The Holy Spirit is God agent in salvation but not the element. He does not cleanse but works God work to the cleansing of sin by the operation of God. He works for God, but only the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses.

Indeed, the words give life, but only when they are placed into practice. Unless we be doers of the word and not hearer only the effectiveness is not to be enjoyed. To think we can benefit ourselve with only hearing the word is very deceptive. The word plainly teaches that man is to be obedient to immersion into Christ. That immersion brings us into spiritual contact with the blood of Jesus Christ which he shed in his death. We are baptized into his death (Romans 6:3-5), and made alive in resurrection. Only then do we walk in newness of life. The "quickening spirit" is not a spirit of salvation and motivation. However it is not the third person of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit will quicken you someday in the resurrection (Rom. 8:11), but that is all together different than what you are teaching. Jesus Christ is God "quickening Spirit" unto salvation not the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).

You still have not found a verse that says you can walk in newness of life without being immersed in water for the remission of sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

Much of the discussion on this thread is on the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5.

If the "one baptism" is the "Spirit baptism",then it would be very difficult to argue that it is water baptism that is necessary for salvation.

"Endeavoring to keep the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.

"There is one Body,and one Spirit,even as you are called in one hope of your calling;

"One Lord,one faith,one baptism,

"One God and Father of all,Who is above all,and through all,and in you all"(Eph.4:3:6).

Notice--these things are in reference to the "unity of the Spirit",and all the things listed are spiritual things.

We are told by Paul to compare "spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13).

We should not mix natural,earthly,and temporal things with spiritual,heavenly,and eternal things.

One Body--The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ.Our citizenship is in heaven and the Lord God has "raised us up together,and made us sit together in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).The body is built "togetherfor an habitation of God through the Spirit"(Eph.2:22).

One Spirit--The Holy Spirit

One Hope--This is the "blessed hope",the Rapture.This is when we will put on our "spiritual,heavenly and eternal bodies (1Cor.44-54) and enter the eternal state.

One Lord--The Lord Jesus Christ,"Now to the King eternal,immortal,invisible,the only wise God"(1Tim.1:17).

One Faith--The word "faith" is used to mean the contents of our faith--the gospel of our salvation."Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament,not of the letter,but of the Spirit...the Spirit giveth life"(2Cor.3:6).

One Baptism--"For by one Spirit are we baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

One God and Father--"...for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.God is a Spirit;and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth"(Jn.4:23,24).

So all the different things listed in the "unity of the SPIRIT" are all spiritual things.

Please consider the fact that "water" is not a heavenly,spiritual element.It does not fit in with all the other spiritual things.

In His grace,--Jerry