The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Elena Marie
New member
Freak said:
Does that mean you don't care to address my point, Freak?
I found another one for you while reading my Bible during lunch. In Acts 19, in Ephesus, St. Paul either performed or was witness to the baptism of the disciples there. If, as you say, there is no need for water baptism, why did St. Paul participate in or witness the baptisms? Why did he not insist that baptism was not necessary?
Freak
New member
Elena,
I have stated the Biblical position quite clealry but you have chosen to ignore the truth of God's Word. I wonder why this is?
The Apostle Paul quite clearly defined that justification is by faith alone. Look with me to two other passages that teach this.
First in Romans 5:1 it states: Having been justifed by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Note there is no mention of baptism of water in this passage. Paul said faith is what justifies you before God. Not water baptism.
In Romans 4 Paul writes: However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Pretty clear.
I have stated the Biblical position quite clealry but you have chosen to ignore the truth of God's Word. I wonder why this is?
The Apostle Paul quite clearly defined that justification is by faith alone. Look with me to two other passages that teach this.
First in Romans 5:1 it states: Having been justifed by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Note there is no mention of baptism of water in this passage. Paul said faith is what justifies you before God. Not water baptism.
In Romans 4 Paul writes: However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Pretty clear.
Freak, I guess Peter didn't know what he was talking about then, when he told the believing Jews at Pentecost to repent AND be baptised FOR the remission of sins? Acts 2:38.According to your warped thinking, Peter shouldn't have told them to repent and be baptised at all, but tell them now that they believed, they were justified and nothing else was needed for their life.
What you fail to see Freak, as in everything you post, is that God indeed justifies one's faith, but a faith that obeys the commands of God and not just one who believes in God only.Heb 5:9 James 2:24
What you fail to see Freak, as in everything you post, is that God indeed justifies one's faith, but a faith that obeys the commands of God and not just one who believes in God only.Heb 5:9 James 2:24
HopeofGlory
New member
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1 John 5:9 (KJV)
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
The only two witnesses for remission of sins.
John's-
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
The cross-
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Paul was the first "man" to teach the greater witness.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
1 John 5:9 (KJV)
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)
The only two witnesses for remission of sins.
John's-
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)
The cross-
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
Paul was the first "man" to teach the greater witness.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
c.moore
New member
HELLO
I hope this information is a blessing to those who are decieved THAT THE GOOD WORKS OF WATER BAPTISM DOESN`t save.
There is a school of thought that supposes salvation is by baptism. This doctrine is called "Baptismal Regeration". Is this doctrine taught in the Scriptures? Or is this a man-made idea of salvation? In this study, we will examine the issue of baptism, and whether it saves or not.
In the New Testament, baptism always means imersion in water except when the passage refers to Spirit baptism. John the Baptist needed "much water" for baptism, as John 3:23 shows. The early Christians baptized by "going down into the water", as Acts 8:38-39 record. The word "Baptism" (Greek- "Baptizo") means immersion and is called burial in Romans 6:4 and Col. 2:12. There is not in one instance in the Bible of sprinkling or pouring of water for baptism. Neither sprinking or pouring baptism is scriptural.
1. Is Baptism Salvation?
Let's look at several passages here to see if Baptism is Salvation.
Acts 8:34-38: "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
We notice from the verses listed above several things.
a. The Eunuch heard the gospel.
b. He trusted Jesus Christ as His saviour first. Notice Philip said that he may be baptized "if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." Clearly, Philip recognized that Salvation precedes Baptism. Hence, baptism is not salvation.
c. The Eunch was baptized after salvation.
Now, Let's look at Mark 16:16:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Notice in both passages, the key word is "believe". Baptism has nothing to do with Salvation. You cannot have baptism without salvation! Salvation ALWAYS precedes baptism in the Scriptures, as we shall see.
Remember, from Acts 8, the story of Philip and the Eunuch, the Eunuch had to be saved first, and then baptized second.
Acts 16:31-33:
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."
So we notice from this passage, they heard the Word of the Lord, accepted it, and then were baptized. Again, Salvation preceeded baptism.
What about Titus 3:5?
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Notice, first of all, "not by works of righteousness". We notice from Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Therefore, any works done by us are unrighteous, nothing we can do can save us. We notice from the above verses, it is not of our doing, but the Lord's doing.
Second, people think this "washing of the regeneration" means water washing. Is this true? Let's look at Heb. 9:14:
Heb 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
This "washing of the regeneration" is not water, but the Blood of Jesus Christ! Read Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:8.
What then, about 1 Pet. 3:21?
1 Pet. 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
What does THAT mean?
It means simply, baptism cannot remove sin. We notice that baptism affirms we accept the resurrection of Christ. Notice that "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" is used. This shows baptism cannot cleanse the filth of the flesh, that is, sin, away. When we read 1 Pet. 3:18-22, the whole context of the verse, we see simply that baptism affirms the resurrection of Christ. There are numerous verses in the Scriptures as to what cleans us from sin (see Col 1:14; Eph 1:8, et al).
B. What is the purpose of Baptism then?
Romans 6:3-4: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Col. 2:12: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Clearly, from the verses above, we indentify ourselves with the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ Jesus through Baptism. This does not make us saved or clean, but rather emphasizes that we, by choice, have chosen to walk with the Lord, leaving our past life of sin beyond, and entering into a newness of serving God and not Sin.
Thus Baptism emphasizes newness of walk (Notice, not newness of salvation or life, but WALK) with the Lord. To illustrate this, let us look at the baptism of our Saviour, Jesus.
Mark 1: 9-11: "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Does this mean Jesus had to be saved? No! This was a pattern that Jesus established for believers to follow. It also marked the beginning of His 3 years of preaching and teaching. This was the beginning of His Service on earth to man. In this way, the pattern is, Baptism and then service. Note, that Jesus did not need Salvation- He was sinless and perfect. It was a Pattern or picture of service for us to follow. So, it is Salvation, Baptism, and Service.
Conclusion: Baptism is not regeneration. It is not salvation. It is a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, a pattern we are to follow.
God bless peace:up:
I hope this information is a blessing to those who are decieved THAT THE GOOD WORKS OF WATER BAPTISM DOESN`t save.
There is a school of thought that supposes salvation is by baptism. This doctrine is called "Baptismal Regeration". Is this doctrine taught in the Scriptures? Or is this a man-made idea of salvation? In this study, we will examine the issue of baptism, and whether it saves or not.
In the New Testament, baptism always means imersion in water except when the passage refers to Spirit baptism. John the Baptist needed "much water" for baptism, as John 3:23 shows. The early Christians baptized by "going down into the water", as Acts 8:38-39 record. The word "Baptism" (Greek- "Baptizo") means immersion and is called burial in Romans 6:4 and Col. 2:12. There is not in one instance in the Bible of sprinkling or pouring of water for baptism. Neither sprinking or pouring baptism is scriptural.
1. Is Baptism Salvation?
Let's look at several passages here to see if Baptism is Salvation.
Acts 8:34-38: "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
We notice from the verses listed above several things.
a. The Eunuch heard the gospel.
b. He trusted Jesus Christ as His saviour first. Notice Philip said that he may be baptized "if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." Clearly, Philip recognized that Salvation precedes Baptism. Hence, baptism is not salvation.
c. The Eunch was baptized after salvation.
Now, Let's look at Mark 16:16:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Notice in both passages, the key word is "believe". Baptism has nothing to do with Salvation. You cannot have baptism without salvation! Salvation ALWAYS precedes baptism in the Scriptures, as we shall see.
Remember, from Acts 8, the story of Philip and the Eunuch, the Eunuch had to be saved first, and then baptized second.
Acts 16:31-33:
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."
So we notice from this passage, they heard the Word of the Lord, accepted it, and then were baptized. Again, Salvation preceeded baptism.
What about Titus 3:5?
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Notice, first of all, "not by works of righteousness". We notice from Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Therefore, any works done by us are unrighteous, nothing we can do can save us. We notice from the above verses, it is not of our doing, but the Lord's doing.
Second, people think this "washing of the regeneration" means water washing. Is this true? Let's look at Heb. 9:14:
Heb 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
This "washing of the regeneration" is not water, but the Blood of Jesus Christ! Read Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:8.
What then, about 1 Pet. 3:21?
1 Pet. 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
What does THAT mean?
It means simply, baptism cannot remove sin. We notice that baptism affirms we accept the resurrection of Christ. Notice that "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" is used. This shows baptism cannot cleanse the filth of the flesh, that is, sin, away. When we read 1 Pet. 3:18-22, the whole context of the verse, we see simply that baptism affirms the resurrection of Christ. There are numerous verses in the Scriptures as to what cleans us from sin (see Col 1:14; Eph 1:8, et al).
B. What is the purpose of Baptism then?
Romans 6:3-4: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Col. 2:12: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Clearly, from the verses above, we indentify ourselves with the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ Jesus through Baptism. This does not make us saved or clean, but rather emphasizes that we, by choice, have chosen to walk with the Lord, leaving our past life of sin beyond, and entering into a newness of serving God and not Sin.
Thus Baptism emphasizes newness of walk (Notice, not newness of salvation or life, but WALK) with the Lord. To illustrate this, let us look at the baptism of our Saviour, Jesus.
Mark 1: 9-11: "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Does this mean Jesus had to be saved? No! This was a pattern that Jesus established for believers to follow. It also marked the beginning of His 3 years of preaching and teaching. This was the beginning of His Service on earth to man. In this way, the pattern is, Baptism and then service. Note, that Jesus did not need Salvation- He was sinless and perfect. It was a Pattern or picture of service for us to follow. So, it is Salvation, Baptism, and Service.
Conclusion: Baptism is not regeneration. It is not salvation. It is a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, a pattern we are to follow.
God bless peace:up:
Elena Marie
New member
Could be because I've read and continue to reread the whole Bible, not just a line here and there?
Then explain to me why in Acts 19 St. Paul was witness to or participated in the baptism of about twleve people. If you're right, wouldn't he have stopped the baptism of these Corinthians? And he certainly wouldn't have laid hands on them, would he?
To you, perhaps. To me, not at all.
Freak
New member
Elena,
Explain to me why Paul taught in the Book of Romans the justification is by faith alone? This is not taken from a few passages in his book but rather this is a major theme taken from his work.
Elena, Paul believed baptism was important as a symbolic gesture to the community as a witness of Christ' work in ones life. But thats' all! Acts 19 says nothing about believers being justified by water. The burden of proof lies with you to prove otherwise.
Explain to me why Paul taught in the Book of Romans the justification is by faith alone? This is not taken from a few passages in his book but rather this is a major theme taken from his work.
Elena, Paul believed baptism was important as a symbolic gesture to the community as a witness of Christ' work in ones life. But thats' all! Acts 19 says nothing about believers being justified by water. The burden of proof lies with you to prove otherwise.
Baptism is still not a "sign...
Baptism is still not a "sign...
Ian –
1 John 5:8 -
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I agree - Baptism is a witness (but not a sign) on earth, as is the Spirit and blood. All three of these in this verse witness that Jesus is the divine Son of God. But would you say that the Spirit and the blood are “signs” of something else?? How ludricrous! This passage does not support your claims that water baptsim is “an outward sign of an inward grace” , a sign of something else.
What you needed was a verse that said baptism was a SIGN – that water baptism represented something else. Once again, this you cannot do!
Baptism is still not a "sign...
Ian –
Ian, you are out of context here. The context was that of doing ALL that is required of God to become saved ! You knew that and yet took the cop-out. How disappointing. Now tell us, what ALL must man do to become saved !
Why parrot yourself? Are you telling that man does NOTHING to receive salvation from God. This is another cop-out Ian –or- you have turned Calvinist. Which is it? Does man have ANY part in obtaining salvation from God, or can man just “flop” and wait for God to save him? What part if any does man take in obtaining his salvation ????
1 John 5:8 -
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I agree - Baptism is a witness (but not a sign) on earth, as is the Spirit and blood. All three of these in this verse witness that Jesus is the divine Son of God. But would you say that the Spirit and the blood are “signs” of something else?? How ludricrous! This passage does not support your claims that water baptsim is “an outward sign of an inward grace” , a sign of something else.
What you needed was a verse that said baptism was a SIGN – that water baptism represented something else. Once again, this you cannot do!
Elena Marie
New member
Freak said:
St. Paul discusses the relationship between man and God, particularly as it relates the Jewish versus Gentiles, with an emphasis on the idea that Christ's saving act applied to both Jew and Gentile, without regard to the observation of strict Torah law. There's a far leap between that and the "faith alone" stand you're taking, especially considering that nowhere does St. Paul say "faith alone."
If it was merely a symbol, why did St. Paul insist that the twelve Corinthians be rebaptised? And based upon the text, it was more than a symbol. It was only after they were rebaptised that he laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. The particulars of that chapter don't make sense under your paradigm.
Gee, Freak, who started a thread with the title, "The Heretics Message to the World: Be Baptised to be Saved"? Since you started the thread and are taking a position seemingly incompatible with Scripture, I would say that the onus is on you to explain your reasoning in light of the text. That's just common debating courtesy.
Freak
New member
Elena,
I'm not sure if I should go one with my discussion with you. The reason is is this: You ignore my posts. Case in point, in your last post you mentioned that Paul did not declare salvation is by faith alone. This is absurd and wacky. I have pointed to numerous verses that point to salvation being attained by "faith alone". Just go back and re-read my posts.My posts have been quite clear. Browse through the posts and you will see I have my beliefs on solid rock-the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.
Until you deal with my passages I have no choice but to ignore you. There other people who want to be taught the truth.
I'm not sure if I should go one with my discussion with you. The reason is is this: You ignore my posts. Case in point, in your last post you mentioned that Paul did not declare salvation is by faith alone. This is absurd and wacky. I have pointed to numerous verses that point to salvation being attained by "faith alone". Just go back and re-read my posts.My posts have been quite clear. Browse through the posts and you will see I have my beliefs on solid rock-the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.
Until you deal with my passages I have no choice but to ignore you. There other people who want to be taught the truth.
JustAChristian
New member
Freak said:
You are very confusing, Freak. First, you say you want Jesus only and then you say you want his blood. Well, whats it gonna be, Jesus or Jesus plus something else? If it is with something else then it is not Jesus only. If you mean to have Jesus only and by faith only and then want the blood then it is not faith only. Can't you see how you are defeating your own self?
I have Jesus with all that he requires of me. I am not adding anything. Jesus wanted me to repent of my sins, and this I did. He wanted me to believe that He is the Son of God and I did. He wanted me to confess Him before the world as God's Son and this I did. Jesus, not the preacher, not the elders and deacons, not the congregation wanted me to wash away my sin with his blood---"What can wash away my sin? Nothin but the blood of Jesus". He wanted me to be buried with Him in baptism and to rise and walk in newness of life. All this Jesus wanted and I answered with obedience. I don't believe I am without Jesus. I don't believe I have embraced anything but His word for my life. Maybe some day you will also.
JustAChristian
Elena Marie
New member
Freak said:
Firstly, I have provided you with two instances where St. Paul's actions go against your interpretation of his writings. You have yet to address them specifically. Rather, you make unsupported statements like, "Romans is all about such-and-so" without any evidence whatsoever. I've read Romans, several times, and have come away with a completely different understanding. If you want to convince me that you're right, you're going to have to do better than make unsupported blanket statements--get particular with me. Address the issue in its totality, rather than picking out verses and expecting me to suddenly "see the light."
Please show me where in the Scriptures it says that one is saved by "faith alone." You know what? You can't. You can show me where St. Paul says that our faith saves us rather than strict observance of Torah law, and I couldn't agree more. Yet that is a far. far cry from supporting your notion that baptism is unnecessary.
In that event, it shouldn't be difficult for you to reconcile St. Paul's actions as reported in Acts with his own writings, not to mention the other books of the NT.
If you don't feel up to discussing the issue with me, Freak, all you have to do is say so.
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Freak
New member
JustaChristian,
You cannot seperate His shed Blood and His personhood. That would be absurd. They are one and the same. Jesus is what saves-Jesus giving His life is what brings eternal life. Now accept Him for your salvation. Water is just that water. Accept the One who created the water.
You cannot seperate His shed Blood and His personhood. That would be absurd. They are one and the same. Jesus is what saves-Jesus giving His life is what brings eternal life. Now accept Him for your salvation. Water is just that water. Accept the One who created the water.
Freak
New member
Elena,
I have given you many passages that are clear regarding the issue at hand. It's not that you cannot believe, it's you having decided within you're heart not to accept the truth. This I cannot change. I'm sorry but I can't change you. I'll have to rely upon the Holy Spirit to do that. I'll trust that the passages I have pointed to have enlighten you. Perhaps I have not communicated clealry to you, if that is the case, then I apologize. Though I think I have been clear. Perhaps, if you are serious to know where the Bible stands on this, you can call me collect. I'll give you my number in a email, if you are interested. Let me know and God bless you!
I have given you many passages that are clear regarding the issue at hand. It's not that you cannot believe, it's you having decided within you're heart not to accept the truth. This I cannot change. I'm sorry but I can't change you. I'll have to rely upon the Holy Spirit to do that. I'll trust that the passages I have pointed to have enlighten you. Perhaps I have not communicated clealry to you, if that is the case, then I apologize. Though I think I have been clear. Perhaps, if you are serious to know where the Bible stands on this, you can call me collect. I'll give you my number in a email, if you are interested. Let me know and God bless you!
Elena Marie
New member
Freak said:
Yes, and I've given you others that are clear regarding the issue.
That's very kind of you, Freak, and I mean that in all sincerity. However, I know what the Bible says about it. I've read it--all of it--several times now and continue to do so. That is why I can't accept your understanding of baptism: the Scriptures plainly give different counsel.
God bless you and yours!
Cows4Christ
New member
Freak: People were healed by touching a napkin, and yet you find it difficult to think that baptism by water has healing power as well? Only, baptism does not heal bodily injury alone, but heals the soul. But therein lies the problem, this brings us to the reason that this thread is a gazillion pages long. One side thinks that salvation is a one time event. You're unsaved... and then... "Look mom, I said a prayer and I'm saved!". The other side sees salvation--not just sanctification, but salvation--as a life long process. Thus baptism can save, repenting can save, and partaking in the eucharist can save. They all save.
As long as there are such diverse foundational beliefs, however, no agreement will be arrived at regarding baptism. Freak will continue to wonder why Elena Marie is blind, and Elena Marie will continue to wonder why Freak is blind. I don't think you are wasting your breath, both sides should be out there to keep the other side from being conceited--from thinking that no opposition to their position even exists. Still, it can get tedious to watch all this proof-texting when it isn't going anywhere. I suggest you go somewhere Freak, though only God can tell you where.
As long as there are such diverse foundational beliefs, however, no agreement will be arrived at regarding baptism. Freak will continue to wonder why Elena Marie is blind, and Elena Marie will continue to wonder why Freak is blind. I don't think you are wasting your breath, both sides should be out there to keep the other side from being conceited--from thinking that no opposition to their position even exists. Still, it can get tedious to watch all this proof-texting when it isn't going anywhere. I suggest you go somewhere Freak, though only God can tell you where.
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c.moore
New member
Hello people
I teach people who get baptized in our church Before we let someone get baptized we have a course called the believer course, and we teach them biblical christain ways and why they should get baptized.
I `ve have talked to many people that don`t want to get baptized because they don`t want to belong to some kind of a church group ,or they think they are not holy enough, or they will not get baptized because they still have habbits like smoking, and many other sins they are fighting with to stop.
I have lead these people through the sinner prayer and they believe in the Son and the Blood of Jesus and they confess and repenton thier sins, but they don`t want to get baptized yet.
I have no right to say they are not saved because they haven`t got baptized, after they already cried out thier hearts to Jesus they want HIM. I can`t and will never say after they recieve the washing of thier sin by the blood of Jesus Christ they are still damned for eternity life in hell because of not being baptized.
I can`t say even after you pured your heart out to Jesus your name will not be in the Lambs book of life, because it is a lie if I tell them they are in the book of hell even those Mark 16:16 says he that believeth NOT shall be damned, but this person I bring to Christ believeth so there can`t be no hell for him or her.
The thing that I teach or show them is this about the marriage ceremony which is the best responce I seen that helps them change thier mind to be baptized.
I hope this can help you to understand about baptism as well.
When a person get marryed he first has the interest of the person they are marrying, and they first believe and love that person and then They confess or ask that person to marry them,so they first do the most important thing and that is to go and get papers that they are married at the city hall or where ever, and then they make a commentment to stay together till death do us part, and when they do this they are then legally married.
Is this true ????????
---------> AND<--------- like you said to make it complete you should have a ring to show you are married so that other will see that you are married, ------> AND<------- you should have a wedding ceremony so that you can celebrate your marriage and testify you are forever together.
Here comes the BIG question and the revelation of the baptism to those being mislead of baptism.
What made the marriage legal???
Was it the marriage wedding party ????
Was it the maybe the wedding bells????
Was it all the guest that was there at the wedding ????
Was it the (RING on the fingers) that makes you married???
Was it the clothes they put on to show they are married????
OR was it when They said I DO take this person to be my wife or husband make the marriage????
If I got married and I don`t have a wedding ring or I don`t believe in wedding ring can I get married????
If I don`t have a wedding am I still married???
I think after you answer these question you will understand that baptism is just the same principle, it is the believing that make us saved, and the baptism is like the wedding party or the wedding ring. I think a person shold have on a wedding ring to show as a symbol he or she is married, and even if they take it off they are stll married because that is not what makes the marriage.
So is the water baptism ceremony.
When we have a baptism the family from the people who get baptize come and watch and be a part just like a marriage party.
I hope this helps, because it helped many to be baptized just because it is right , just as right to wear your wedding rings.
Be Bless peace
I teach people who get baptized in our church Before we let someone get baptized we have a course called the believer course, and we teach them biblical christain ways and why they should get baptized.
I `ve have talked to many people that don`t want to get baptized because they don`t want to belong to some kind of a church group ,or they think they are not holy enough, or they will not get baptized because they still have habbits like smoking, and many other sins they are fighting with to stop.
I have lead these people through the sinner prayer and they believe in the Son and the Blood of Jesus and they confess and repenton thier sins, but they don`t want to get baptized yet.
I have no right to say they are not saved because they haven`t got baptized, after they already cried out thier hearts to Jesus they want HIM. I can`t and will never say after they recieve the washing of thier sin by the blood of Jesus Christ they are still damned for eternity life in hell because of not being baptized.
I can`t say even after you pured your heart out to Jesus your name will not be in the Lambs book of life, because it is a lie if I tell them they are in the book of hell even those Mark 16:16 says he that believeth NOT shall be damned, but this person I bring to Christ believeth so there can`t be no hell for him or her.
The thing that I teach or show them is this about the marriage ceremony which is the best responce I seen that helps them change thier mind to be baptized.
I hope this can help you to understand about baptism as well.
When a person get marryed he first has the interest of the person they are marrying, and they first believe and love that person and then They confess or ask that person to marry them,so they first do the most important thing and that is to go and get papers that they are married at the city hall or where ever, and then they make a commentment to stay together till death do us part, and when they do this they are then legally married.
Is this true ????????
---------> AND<--------- like you said to make it complete you should have a ring to show you are married so that other will see that you are married, ------> AND<------- you should have a wedding ceremony so that you can celebrate your marriage and testify you are forever together.
Here comes the BIG question and the revelation of the baptism to those being mislead of baptism.
What made the marriage legal???
Was it the marriage wedding party ????
Was it the maybe the wedding bells????
Was it all the guest that was there at the wedding ????
Was it the (RING on the fingers) that makes you married???
Was it the clothes they put on to show they are married????
OR was it when They said I DO take this person to be my wife or husband make the marriage????
If I got married and I don`t have a wedding ring or I don`t believe in wedding ring can I get married????
If I don`t have a wedding am I still married???
I think after you answer these question you will understand that baptism is just the same principle, it is the believing that make us saved, and the baptism is like the wedding party or the wedding ring. I think a person shold have on a wedding ring to show as a symbol he or she is married, and even if they take it off they are stll married because that is not what makes the marriage.
So is the water baptism ceremony.
When we have a baptism the family from the people who get baptize come and watch and be a part just like a marriage party.
I hope this helps, because it helped many to be baptized just because it is right , just as right to wear your wedding rings.
Be Bless peace