The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Apollos

New member
The showing of prejudice and bias...

The showing of prejudice and bias...

Greetings J-a-C -

You are doing a good job with Freak. Freak will "argue" in circles and will never give you a straight answer. The reason is because he cannot answer forthrightly and be consistent.

In an earlier discussion with him I asked what it took to come to the "point" of salvation. Freak cut&pasted a mound of scriptures, but never gave a direct answer to the questions posed to him.

Ask - At what "point" does a sinner come to be saved - and provide the scripture(s) to back it up.

What is required??? Belief - Repentance - Confession - Water Baptism ??? If the answer is "just Jesus" - the answer is a cop-out!! We all know it takes more than "belief only" and therefore disagree ONLY on how many things it takes to get us to the "point" of salvation.

You see, even Freak believes that it takes more than "belief only" to be saved, yet he will not admit it because he will then appear inconsistent - and rightly so!

Ask Freak again - what does it take to come to that "point" of salvation??

(The remarks from H-o-G about "waterdog" is just a prejudicial remark he makes in a vain attempt to cover the bias he has toward water baptsim being for the remission of sins. He is lost, so I just refer to him as the "Lost HoG". Just a tit for tat - lol!)
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Christ Jesus preached the kingdom message to the circumcision and he chose the twelve to deliver it but He instructed them not to go the Gentiles.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)

Clearly the circumcision message Peter preached was not to be delivered to the uncircumcision or was Jesus wrong?

The gospel of the kingdom at this time was a message to be give only to Israel as God’s chosen people. This circumcision only message prepared the nation of Israel as priests and Christ commanded it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.

Water baptism "washed away" their sin and was effectual in obedience preparing Israel as priests before the cross. Under the law this ordinance (required work) can clearly be seen in “old” testament rituals where the priest were made clean as they washed away their sins in the rite of water baptism.
In the ritual of sacrifice the priest were fully wet or "baptized" in water. This rite of cleansing removed sin and prepared them to receive the sacrifice. The sacrifical “blood” was "sprinkled" on the people. Water baptism is not a sign of the blood being sprinkled and they are clearly two different elements in the same ritual.

This old testament rite was the declaration of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and it is the same as Peter's Pentecostal message (Acts 2:38) both were a “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins“.

Israel's understanding of water baptism was that it "washed away their sins" even after the cross.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)

Notice the below scripture is unto the children of Israel and if ye “obey” my voice you will be a kingdom of priest and it is clear the Baptist was that voice crying in the wilderness.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

The twelve were instructed in this circumcision message and were commanded to “Go not into the way of the Gentiles“ but only to “the house of Israel”.

After the cross the apostles are commanded to ....Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)

Why the change?

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

The cross removed the ordinances.....Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)

Before the new testament sin remission also required endurance to the end. The new testament (Matt 26:28) with a better testimony (John 5:36) granted eternal life (John 6:54) and was only effectual after the cross (Heb. 9:17).

Before the cross salvation was only found in ordinances of the law and the Gentiles were without the law (Rom. 2:14) contained in the old testimony for sin remission. Righteousness at that time had to be received under the ordinances contained in the law (Rom. 2:26) simply because the new testament had no strength until after the death of Christ.

Before the cross Israel was still bound to ordinances for remission.

Peter's circumcision message for remission was not the new testament for remission and his message was not meant to be delivered to uncircumcised Gentiles who were without the law.

The apostles were teachings the same message after the cross (Acts. 2:38) as the Baptist was before the cross (Mark 1:4). Therefore the apostles at Pentecost did not teach (Matt. 26:28).

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

Two witnesses! Matt 26:28 superceded Acts 2:38.

But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)

Paul is the first to deliver the new testament proclaiming righteousness without the ordinances of the law.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:28 (KJV)

Before this time they were justified with the deeds of the law!

Clearly two different messages for sin remission were preached! The circumcision message was only to Israel of the law and the uncircumcision to Gentiles who were without the law.

Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)


But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles Gal. 2:8 (KJV)

Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to water baptism.


In Christ
Craig
 

Kevin

New member
Freak,

Perhaps this verse will help clue you in:

2 Tim. 3:16

16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

According to this verse, how much scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness? ALL Scripture, not just Romans 8:30.
 

Elena Marie

New member
Freak said:
Marie, again deal with what Jesus said "I am the door". If someone enters through HIM then that person will be saved. Trust me and the Holy Scriptures, Jesus is all we need. He is eternal God. He doesn't need some water. Water is unable to forgive sins. Water does not provide the relationship that one needs with God to find peace. Water is just that water. Jesus is a person, no wonder He says "Come unto me..."

I certainly wouldn't argue that Christ is The Door. That much is certain.

I would appreciate it if you would deal with the issue of context.
 

Freak

New member
Elena,

Perhaps you can take Jesus at His word when He says "I am the way" (John 14:6). Jesus is our salvation. It does not surprise me that we have so many on this forum offering others "ways" (baptism, confirmation, works, etc) to be saved. The enemy enjoys it when others "preach another Gospel" as you have done justachristian.
 

Kevin

New member
Freak,

The big difference between you and I is this:

I believe Jesus alone is enough.

You believe Jesus and something else is what one needs.

No no no.... here's the deal. We also believe that Jesus is the key to salvation, as do you. However, we also believe it's necessary to do what He says we need to do for salvation - YOU DON'T.

Jesus said that we need to believe and be baptized to be saved (Mark 16:16). You don't believe that. Simple as that. You seem to have the inability to understand that we aren't adding anything to salvation, we are simply obeying what Jesus said we need to do to be saved. And you can't deal with that. How pitiful.
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Kevin

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free". Some say it is not free and by adding their obedience they deny the word of God and void the free gift.

In Christ
Craig
 

Freak

New member
Kevin,

Again you're missing the big picture. Jesus is enough plain and simple. You are attempting to say that one has to do more than embracing the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and that is wrong. The Apostle Paul was clear when he said the law had a purpose in leading us to Christ in that we might be "justified by faith" (Galatians 3:24). Justification is a legal term meaning to be "made right". One is made right with God simply through faith in Christ. Notice there is no mention of water. Again the big difference with you and I is this: you point people to the water, I point people to Jesus!
 

Kevin

New member
Freak, HoG,

If we go by what you mean as being free, then God's grace isn't free by even your definition. If God's grace is free in the sense that you see it, that means everybody, and I mean everybody will go to Heaven. You say that one simply has to believe to be saved. Guess what? You've just added a condition that somebody must do - they have to believe to recieve the "free" grace of God. I guess it's no longer free by your definition because somebody is required to do something to obtain it - believe.

The fact is, there are conditions to obtain that saving grace: believe and be baptized (Mark 16:16).
 

Freak

New member
Kevin,

Paul had some very serious warnings to those (like yourself) that seek to pervert the Scriptures. I would be very, very careful when dealing with how one is saved. God has been known to deal very harshly those who mock Him and who violently twist His words.

The Lord Jesus Christ is all we need for salvation. Water is just that mere water. However when one enters a personal relationship with the living Savior they are truly transformed.

The Word of God says: For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

These are the words of Jesus. He said simple belief in Him is enough for eternal life. These are not my words bu the Lord's. Now accept them!
 

kiwimac

BANNED
Banned
Freak,

Deary, deary me, you accuse Kevin of perverting the scriptures, have you glanced in a mirror recently? This is not just tje pot calling the kettle black, dear boy

This is the carbon dump calling the punctuation black, you, matey, are the ultimate twister / perverter of scripture.

Jesus talked about folk like you, something about taking the log out of their own eye so they could see the speck in someone elses!

Kiwimac
 

c.moore

New member
Freak said:
Again you're missing the big picture. Jesus is enough plain and simple. You are attempting to say that one has to do more than embracing the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and that is wrong. The Apostle Paul was clear when he said the law had a purpose in leading us to Christ in that we might be "justified by faith" (Galatians 3:24). Justification is a legal term meaning to be "made right". One is made right with God simply through faith in Christ. Notice there is no mention of water. Again the big difference with you and I is this: you point people to the water, I point people to Jesus!


Thank God we can try to tell people the good news together about the way to Jesus and not to point people to baptism salvation.

God Bless you my brother in Christ
peace:up:
 

c.moore

New member
Kevin said:
Freak,



And Jesus pointed us to believe and be baptized to be saved (Mark 16:16)! Hopefully they will listen to Jesus, and not you.


Quote by c.moore

M'r:16:13: And they went and told it unto the residue: neither (believed )they them. (no1 believed)

M'r:16:14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their( unbelief )and hardness of heart, because they (believed) not them which had seen him after he was risen. (no2,3 believe and belief)

M'r:16:15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
M'r:16:16: He that( believeth) and is baptized shall be saved; but he that (believeth )not shall be damned. (no5,6 believed)
(notice in verse 16 after baptized shall be saved; the (BUT)!en
When a but is in a sentence or someone says for instance I forgive you ;BUT I know you are wrong the forgiveness is cancelled because of the but meaning merely, or almost not completely . The But stops what ever you said before and make what ever you said none complete or whole hearted.
I forgive BUT I can`t forget, then there is no complete forgiveness. That why in verse 16 is mention he that believeth not has damnation , not those who don`t get baptized is damned.


M'r:16:17: And these signs shall follow them that( believe); In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (no7 believe) notice no baptism mention of signs that follow.

M'r:16:18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

M'r:16:19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
M'r:16:20: And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
They confirmed the word of belief in Jesus Christ not the water baptism.

I hope I broke it down easy enough for you to understand.

God Bless
peace
 

Elena Marie

New member
Freak said:
Perhaps you can take Jesus at His word when He says "I am the way" (John 14:6). Jesus is our salvation.

You're preaching to the choir, Freak.

Perhaps you would like to explain why St. Peter commanded that Cornelius and his family be baptized? If, as you say, Jesus said that baptism wasn't necessary, St. Peter certainly would have known that.

It does not surprise me that we have so many on this forum offering others "ways" (baptism, confirmation, works, etc) to be saved. The enemy enjoys it when others "preach another Gospel" as you have done justachristian.

Freak, you cannot prove using Scripture IN CONTEXT and IN FULL that Our Lord said "all you gotta do is believe." The thief on the cross was an example of Our Lord's great mercy, and evidence that under extreme circumstances one may be saved without baptism, but the rest of the text plainly shows that baptism is valuable and preferred if possible.

Therefore, it appears to me that you are the one preaching "another Gospel."
 

Ian Day

New member
The point is that obedience follows belief (or saving faith), and shows the evidence of that belief. (This is the sense James uses for "justification.")

We must be saved for baptism etc to be of any significance. The ONLY ACT OF OBEDIENCE THAT SAVES IS THAT OF CHRIST ALONE.

Conversely, if we believe that Christ died for our sins, & use that truth to justify continuing in sins, then that faith is worthless.

Works without faith is dead, faith without works is dead. And saving faith, which is spiritual life, must be in existence for baptism to tell the truth, that we are dead to sin, & alive to God.
 

Apollos

New member
Tell us what you are saying...

Tell us what you are saying...

c. moore –

From your last post...

You are attempting to say that one has to do more than embracing the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and that is wrong.

You and several other continue to hide behind clichés and your words.

Please tell us – exactly what does “embracing the person of Jesus” means AND what does this involve.

Be quite specific and give scripture to support it! Thankx!

<<<<<<<<<
 

Apollos

New member
No scripture shows that water baptsim is to "show" or "tell" something...

No scripture shows that water baptsim is to "show" or "tell" something...

Ian –

While our actions can and should show that we believe in Christ, this is not the purpose of water baptism in scripture, nor can you find a passage that shows such! You still struggle in vain to prove that water baptism is “an outward sign of an inward grace”. It ain’t so !

James was telling us that faith without action is dead - it does not exist! You are still trying to save people by “faith alone”, before they have done ALL that is required of them by God to do! The faith that saves is the faith that ACTS !

The ONLY ACT OF OBEDIENCE THAT SAVES IS THAT OF CHRIST ALONE.
Ian, are you saying that man takes NO PART in his salvation? Have you become a Calvinist?? This is ambiguous and errant!

Baptism was not given to “tell the truth” that one is saved. Water baptism is FOR the remission of sins – to wash away sins!! Water is the means God has given for man to appropriate the salvation He offers to man by His grace.
 

Ian Day

New member
Apollos,

I will NEVER be in the situation of "having done ALL that is required of them by God to do!" (e.g. Be Holy, for I am holy.)

The ONLY ACT OF OBEDIENCE THAT SAVES IS THAT OF CHRIST ALONE.

Baptism is a witness on earth:
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 

JustAChristian

New member
Isn't it Amazing?????????????

Isn't it Amazing?????????????

HopeofGlory said:
Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to water baptism.


In Christ
Craig [/B]

If a part of your discourse is wrong, then your whole doctrine is wrong.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring into remembrance what Jesus had taught them (John 14:26). He must have taught them baptism, for Peter and the apostles performed water baptism. (Acts 2:38-47). Philip the evangelist water baptized the Samarians and the Ethopian Nobleman (Acts 8).Peter later performed water baptism at the house of Cornelius (Acts 10). Paul also baptized Lydia and the Jailor and his household(Acts 16)
The ministry of the apostles was of preaching the gospel and baptism of the believers. There was no other gospel that what they preached (Gal 1:6,10;1 Cor. 7:17) Now, if Peter preached to one Gentile, Cornelius, one gospel and Paul preached to other Gentiles a different gospel, then there is confusion created, but God is not the author of confusion. (1 Cor 14:33). If this is not the truth then why not?

My friend, I'll be the first to tell you that I don't have all the answers. In fact, I don't have half the answers, but I have enough here to show that your conclusions are unstable and needed to be reconsidered.

JustAChristian
 
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