ECT The Gospel Proper

[Right Divider]

Here is the rule in regard to salvation for the Jews who lived under the law according to the Savior:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Peter, a Jew who lived under the law, said that He was saved the same way that the Gentiles are saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Since I know that you are Greek EXPERT and a Bible corrector, Ihis will be meaningless to you:

Act 15:8-11 KJV​

(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;​

(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.​

(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?​

(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.​

Are you another one of those who thinks that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

Where would you get such a strange idea? How many times have I posted these?

Rom 11:6 KJV​

(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​

​

2Ti 1:9 KJV​

(9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,​

​

 

[Rosenritter]

You just did.



Not what you accused me of, False Witness, Goalposts Mover.

You accused me of teaching that James taught the Old Covenant.

NOT

... That James taught the same/different than Paul.



:blabla:

:troll:

"I'm not the false witness, you are!"

Leave TOL, false accuser.

If someone asks you to clear up a misunderstanding and you choose not to, it seems that you want to be misunderstood.

 

[Rosenritter]

Here is the rule in regard to salvation for the Jews who lived under the law according to the Savior:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Peter, a Jew who lived under the law, said that He was saved the same way that the Gentiles are saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Are you another one of those who thinks that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

"Works" is not a complete self-contained phrase. Works of what? There are works of the law, and there are works of love, and there are works of faith.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If someone asks you to clear up a misunderstanding and you choose not to, it seems that you want to be misunderstood.

In case you weren't aware, this isn't my first rodeo with GT.

I recommend you stop defending her, because she is extremely dishonest.

 

[Rosenritter]

In case you weren't aware, this isn't my first rodeo with GT.

I recommend you stop defending her, because she is extremely dishonest.

I haven't said anything with regards to GT in that request, but on the face of what is shown, she said something which you said was incorrect. She requested that you correct the statement for the record, and you chose not to correct the statement but instead to accuse. I don't care about GT in this case, but refusing to offer the correction (when requested) and then calling names isn't a consistent position.

Would you clear up the misunderstanding for my sake? Do you suggest that James taught an opposing message than others? Or under a different covenant? Because that does sound a lot like what I've heard others here say.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Would you clear up the misunderstanding for my sake?

Sure.

Do you suggest that James taught an opposing message than others? Or under a different covenant? Because that does sound a lot like what I've heard others here say.

James taught the New Covenant.

Paul taught the Covenant of Grace, which is not the NC.

 

[glorydaz]

Of the tings you listed only 'believing" was required for salvation,.

Are you one who claims that the Jews who lived under the law had to do more than to believe in order to receive eternal life despite the Lord Jesus' words to the contrary?

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Why is it you choose to ignore what the Jews have always known?

Acts 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.​

 

[God's Truth]

If someone asks you to clear up a misunderstanding and you choose not to, it seems that you want to be misunderstood.

Isn't he the one who went against the scripture that says the old law was not based on faith?

Didn't he go against that scripture then post James saying faith alone is dead as proof the old law required faith?

As if James was speaking of the old law; he was not.

 

[God's Truth]

I haven't said anything with regards to GT in that request, but on the face of what is shown, she said something which you said was incorrect. She requested that you correct the statement for the record, and you chose not to correct the statement but instead to accuse. I don't care about GT in this case, but refusing to offer the correction (when requested) and then calling names isn't a consistent position.

Would you clear up the misunderstanding for my sake? Do you suggest that James taught an opposing message than others? Or under a different covenant? Because that does sound a lot like what I've heard others here say.

I am glad to see someone stand up for what is right.

 

[God's Truth]

Sure.

James taught the New Covenant.

Paul taught the Covenant of Grace, which is not the NC.

Paul did teach the New Covenant.

Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

 

[musterion]

Oh how I love parts of the Word of God!

Do not just read the word, do those parts that you want of it.

He said sell all that you have. If you won't obey and sell all that you have, you are a liar and don't love the word of God.

 

[God's Truth]

He said sell all that you have. If you won't obey and sell all that you have, you are a liar and don't love the word of God.

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since I know that you are Greek EXPERT and a Bible corrector, Ihis will be meaningless to you:

Do you really think that even though Peter had already received the Spirit he wasn't yet saved?:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Where would you get such a strange idea? How many times have I posted these?

So you do not deny that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith apart from works since Paul wrote this about the Jews who lived under the law?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[musterion]

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.

YOU DO NOT get to pick which words of His to obey, when the point of your every post is how no one obeys Him as good as you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

James is talking about what God required from the Jews.

Who would know more about what God required from the Jews who lived under the law for Salvation than the Savior Himself but you refuse to believe what He told those Jews:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I have no problem believing Jesus, Jerry, but it's the way you read things into His words that I don't believe.

Then tell me what I say is wrong about my interpretation of His words which I just quoted from John 5:24. In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, the Lord Jesus was saying that those who were believing at the time that He spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once the Jew who lived under the law believed he received eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life.

But you say that "believing" was not enough for the Jews who lived under the law, and that directly contradicts the words of the Lord Jesus. What He said in that verse is either true or false and according to you what He said is false because you continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

Believe whatever you want but I believe the Lord Jesus.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why is it you choose to ignore what the Jews have always known?

Acts 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.​

So you put more faith in what these Jews said than you do in what the Lord Jesus Himself teaches?

 

[Clete]

?? D's link provides a good summary!

I'm sorry! This is what I get for being in too big of a hurry and not making myself clear.

What I'm wanting to know is how it reads? Is it a dry, academic theology text book type read or something else?

Is it well written, even if it is academic, or does it feel like something that is self-published and poorly edited?

Is it rational or at least mostly so, or do you have to wade through a lot of cooky nonsense to pick out the stuff worth reading? (Have you ever read anything by Watchman Nee? His stuff is like 99.9% cookiness to .1% total brilliance.)

Would you recommend I buy a copy of the book?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.

Quit making Jesus divided, GT!!!!!1!

:mock:

Do you really think that even though Peter had already received the Spirit he wasn't yet saved?:

David had received the Spirit, but He begged for the Holy Spirit to never be taken from him.

Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. - Psalm 51:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm51:11&version=NKJV

Jesus said:

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew24:13&version=NKJV

Meaning, if you don't strive to be righteous until the end (of the end times), then you won't be saved. In other words, at that point, one was not sealed by the Holy Spirit.

And as far as I can tell, all the way up to when Paul was converted, that is how they continued, striving to endure as Christ had told them. I just went through Acts 1-8, and couldn't find anything that would indicate that they had stopped "enduring" and instead "rested".

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

So you do not deny that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith apart from works since Paul wrote this about the Jews who lived under the law?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

It wasn't until after Paul's conversion that we hear about being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And as far as I can tell, all the way up to when Paul was converted, that is how they continued, striving to endure as Christ had told them. I just went through Acts 1-8, and couldn't find anything that would indicate that they had stopped "enduring" and instead "rested".

You are taking a "narrative" and mistakenly making theology out of it. The Lord Jesus was saying that those who endure to the end (the end of the great tribulation) would be "delivered" from a physical death. The Jews under the law received eternal life the moment they believed (Jn.5:24) and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

 

[Rosenritter]

Sure.

James taught the New Covenant.

Paul taught the Covenant of Grace, which is not the NC.

OK, that still sounds rather confusing. You are saying the New Covenant is not of grace?

Matthew 26:28 KJV
(28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 KJV
(7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

"Remission of sins" in his blood is grace, as stated in Ephesians 1:7, "in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." The New Covenant is the Covenant of Grace, through Christ's blood, with Jesus as its mediator and testator.

Mark 14:24 KJV
(24) And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
(6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Hebrews 9:15 KJV
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:23-24 KJV
(23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Please note from the above examples:
1) The blood of the New Testament is shed for many (not limited to any particular group)
2) The Corinthians are spoken to as being ministers of the new testament (not Jews only)
3) The epistle to the Hebrews are likewise spoken to of the new testament (not Gentiles only)
4) Hebrews offers examples of "New Covenant" and "New Testament" being used interchangeably