ECT The Gospel Proper

[God's Truth]

You just did.



Not what you accused me of, False Witness, Goalposts Mover.

You accused me of teaching that James taught the Old Covenant.

NOT

... That James taught the same/different than Paul.



:blabla:

:troll:

"I'm not the false witness, you are!"

Leave TOL, false accuser.

You preach there are three gospels?!

How about this: There is only one gospel that saves and Jesus taught it, his apostle James taught it, and Paul taught it!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Here is the confused JR

False accuser.

telling me that James DOES TEACH WORKS AND FAITH!

Not me.

James:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV

Paul, however:

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5&version=NKJV

lain:

JR went against me when I QUOTED PAUL as saying the LAW WAS NOT BASED ON FAITH.

Because it's not.

It's based on works.

In the LAW, one of the WORKS is FAITH.

You MUST HAVE FAITH, as well as all of the other works.

In GRACE, there are NO WORKS, only FAITH, and it's not even OUR faith, but Christ's.

JR then gave scripture from JAMES who preaches FAITH AND WORKS.

Duh, that was my argument, as was comparing that to PAUL who says NO WORKS, only FAITH, and not even ours, but Christ's, which is a GIFT.

AS IF James is preaching the old law!

Not at all.

You preach there are three gospels?!

I preach that there are MANY gospels, but only one at a time saves.

How about this: There is only one gospel that saves and Jesus taught it, his apostle James taught it, and Paul taught it!

Correction:

There is only one gospel at a time that saves, but there are multiple gospels throughout the Bible that saved. Jesus taught the covenant of LAW, James taught the NEW COVENANT, and Paul taught a different covenant, the covenant of GRACE, which has NO LAW, which is come BEFORE the New Covenant, even though God's plan was to have it AFTER.

 

[JudgeRightly]

JR went against me when I QUOTED PAUL as saying the LAW WAS NOT BASED ON FAITH.

And no, you didn't say "the law was not based on faith."

YOU SAID:

The old law did not require faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;

NOT

The old law did not require faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not of faith;

There's a HUGE difference there that I was pointing out, and you apparently missed it, as well as Rosenritter.

 

[God's Truth]

False accuser.

Not me.

James:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

James SAYS faith alone CANNOT SAVE ANYONE.

Paul, however:

Paul is explaining that faith without the purification works saves.

There is only one gospel at a time that saves, but there are multiple gospels throughout the Bible that saved. Jesus taught the covenant of LAW, James taught the NEW COVENANT, and Paul taught a different covenant, the covenant of GRACE, which has NO LAW, which is come BEFORE the New Covenant, even though God's plan was to have it AFTER.

NO SUCH THING.

I even gave you scriptures that show what I say about Jesus, James, and Paul teaching the EXACT SAME GOSPEL.

You don't have understanding, but you sure know how to insult and threaten.

 

[God's Truth]

And no, you didn't say "the law was not based on faith."

YOU SAID:



NOT



There's a HUGE difference there that I was pointing out, and you apparently missed it, as well as Rosenritter.

There is no difference.

The old law is NOT OF FAITH. It was NOT based on faith.

The people HAD to CLEAN THEMSELVES with a special diet, and various external washings, and circumcision, and the sacrifice of animals.

 

[JudgeRightly]

James SAYS faith alone CANNOT SAVE ANYONE.



Paul is explaining that faith without the purification works saves.



NO SUCH THING.

I even gave you scriptures that show what I say.

You don't have understanding, but you sure know how to insult and threaten.

Point out, oh wise one, where Paul says "do not do 'purification works' to be saved".

You can't, because Paul never said that.

He said salvation is by grace through faith, the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS.

You keep trying to join together what James and Paul wrote which are in direct opposition to one another.

You try to "explain away" the contradiction by saying that "Paul meant only certain works," instead of just letting what James says be what James says, which is that works + faith = salvation, and letting what Paul says be what Paul says, which is that faith + 0 works = salvation.

Old Covenant = works (faith was a work and included in the Old Covenant)

New Covenant = works (minus ceremonial/symbolic laws) (includes faith as a work)

Gospel of Grace (given to Paul and not the 12) = no works, not even faith, as faith is the GIFT OF GOD

There is no difference.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

There is a huge difference between "of faith" and "requires faith."

The old law is NOT OF FAITH.

I COMPLETELY AGREE!

But the law is full of WORKS.

The Law required WORKS.

FAITH (in the covenant of law) is a WORK.

Therefore FAITH (as a WORK) is REQUIRED BY THE LAW.

It was NOT based on faith.

AGAIN, I COMPLETELY AGREE! It was BASED ON WORKS. And AS A WORK, FAITH WAS REQUIRED.

The people HAD to CLEAN THEMSELVES with a special diet, and various external washings, and circumcision, and the sacrifice of animals.

Your point?

 

[God's Truth]

Point out, oh wise one, where Paul says "do not do 'purification works' to be saved".

I point it out many times!


Read how Paul mentions 'circumcision' as the work vs faith:

Romans 2:25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Romans 3:1 [ God’s Faithfulness ] What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?

Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I point it out many times!

No, you have not. You keep using circumcision as an example, but it doesn't work, and I'll explain (again) why below. But you never point out where anyone says "do not do baptisms," or "sacrifices," etc. Why? Because there aren't any verses that say those things.

Read how Paul mentions 'circumcision' as the work vs faith:

Circumcision, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE, is used to refer to the WHOLE LAW.

"The people of the circumcision" are the ones who, you guessed it, KEEP THE LAW.

It's called a synecdoche. It's when you use part of something to refer to the whole.

So, at best, your examples are circumstantial.

Try again.

 

[john w]

Real faith is described as the "evidence" of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen not seen" (Heb.12:1).​

In fact, real faith comes in the power of God and not in men's wisdom, as Paul said here:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).​

Those with real faith have the evidence that the Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life when they "believed" in the Lord Jesus, as "evidenced" by the His following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

Those who do not have the "evidence of things not seen" cannot even understand that the Lord Jesus told these Jews who lived under the law that anyone who saw Him and "believed" in Him have eternal life.

Some people have that evidence and some don't. Those without the evidence are like the unbelieving Jews to whom Stephen addressed the following words:

"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51).​

Evasion. Non responsive. And you cannot even quote the correct Hebrews chapter-it is Hebrews Chapter 11, not 12. That tells us much about you-sloppy, not paying attention, to the details, of the bible.And Hebrews 11:1 KJV, is not referencing "personal" faith; nea, it is talking about the "reasonableness" of the Christian faith,it's logic, the conviction, substance, foundation, of what the Jewish believers, but have not seen; thus, our faith is based upon evidence, but not by what we have seen, as we walk by faith, not by sight.We believe, to see, and not the opposite.What we see, is what we know; what we hear, is what we believe.

How much evidence,Jer?

What James is saying is that real "faith" results in good works and if good works do not result then it is not a saving faith. But he is not saying that works are required for salvation, as evidenced by what he said in the first chapter:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"​

(Jas.1:18).​

And Peter teaches the same thing:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.23,25).​

Do be a dear, Jerry, and lay out "real" faith. How much "good works?" Muslims, Buddhists, JW's, Mormons .................can demonstrate "good works." And? Lay it out for us, as eternal destinies are at stake. You talk like John Mac., Catholics, Kirl Cameron..............-they talk like you. Of course, because most of "Christendom" are rebels, and refuse to rightly divide the word of truth, they fall into the ditch of "Lordship 'Salvation'."

So, if what James is saying, affirms what Paul is saying, as, according to you, "It all says the same thing,"....

if good works do not result then it is not a saving faith

....Unpack for us the specifics, of "saving faith," how much "good works," and how you know, or anyone else knows,how one can see evidence of "internal" good works, and how anyone/you, can assess whether a Buddhist's, for eg., good works are not "saving faith," while someone else's is.

Unpack it for me, at least, asI am just a dumb hillbilly, scratchin' my noggin.

Jethro John

 

[john w]

Yes. I got that. I want to know more about the book.

?? D's link provides a good summary!

 

[God's Truth]

No, you have not. You keep using circumcision as an example, but it doesn't work, and I'll explain (again) why below. But you never point out where anyone says "do not do baptisms," or "sacrifices," etc. Why? Because there aren't any verses that say those things.

Water baptism for the repentance of sins is not an old law requirement.

Paul says no more about special days, and no more about various external washings the Jews used to have to do, and no more animal sacrifices, and no more circumcision.

Circumcision is the sign of the purification works of the law!

It was a sign that the person was under the covenant and cleaned themselves.

Circumcision, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE, is used to refer to the WHOLE LAW.

"The people of the circumcision" are the ones who, you guessed it, KEEP THE LAW.

It's called a synecdoche. It's when you use part of something to refer to the whole.

So, at best, your examples are circumstantial.

Try again.

CIRCUMCISION IS THE SIGN OF THE PURIFICATION works of the law!

 

[glorydaz]

What James is saying is that real "faith" results in good works and if good works do not result then it is not a saving faith.

James is talking about what God required from the Jews.

But he is not saying that works are required for salvation, as evidenced by what he said in the first chapter:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"​

(Jas.1:18).​

I don't think James is talking about the firstfruits of the Spirit, but the first to be of the household of God. Otherwise, we would be "working" and keeping ourselves as the Jews had to do.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.​

The Jews who lived under the law and believed in His name were given the right to be the children of God and therefore they were "born of God":

glorydaz, do you believe what the Savior said to the woman?

I have no problem believing Jesus, Jerry, but it's the way you read things into His words that I don't believe.

 

[glorydaz]

Water baptism for the repentance of sins is not an old law requirement.

Paul says no more about special days, and no more about various external washings the Jews used to have to do, and no more animal sacrifices, and no more circumcision.

Circumcision is the sign of the purification works of the law!

It was a sign that the person was under the covenant and cleaned themselves.




CIRCUMCISION IS THE SIGN OF THE PURIFICATION works of the law!

You should get off this thread. You're ruining it with your pushy ungodly foolishness.

 

[God's Truth]

You should get off this thread. You're ruining it with your pushy ungodly foolishness.

The truth hurts. You put up with all these other posters who speak their beliefs, but when I preach, you can't handle it.

 

[glorydaz]

It seems you are the one contradicting yourself. In the same post you said that the law DOES require faith and DOES NOT require faith and then you criticized GT as contradicting herself.

Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

That's the passage GT posted, and it does certainly look like (from what Paul said) that the law (of Moses) was not a law of faith. I don't agree with GT in every conclusion but I don't think she is contradicting herself on this point, and the passage that she posted did establish that the law (of Moses) was not of faith.

Are there other passages you are thinking of that do establish that the law (of Moses) is of faith? I am not speaking of salvation of those who were within the Old Covenant (salvation has always been of faith, the just shall live by faith) but specifically of that Law.

JR was not contradicting himself. You just missed his point.

This is a question of what, specifically, God required from people...depending on which dispensation they are in.

 

[glorydaz]

The truth hurts. You put up with all these other posters who speak their beliefs, but when I preach, you can't handle it.

You have no truth. You are devoid of truth. You get on your soapbox and emote all over the thread. :vomit:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So it's not possible to make two lists of the rules for each?

Make is really simple for those of us that are not super smart, like you.

Here is the rule in regard to salvation for the Jews who lived under the law according to the Savior:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Peter, a Jew who lived under the law, said that He was saved the same way that the Gentiles are saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Are you another one of those who thinks that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

 

[glorydaz]

Here is the rule in regard to salvation for the Jews who lived under the law according to the Savior:

"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Peter, a Jew who lived under the law, said that He was saved the same way that the Gentiles are saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Are you another one of those who thinks that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

Are you one who claims God did not require the Jews to believe, AND be circumcised, AND keep the Law, AND offer sacrifices?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

....Unpack for us the specifics, of "saving faith," how much "good works," and how you know, or anyone else knows,how one can see evidence of "internal" good works, and how anyone/you, can assess whether a Buddhist's, for eg., good works are not "saving faith," while someone else's is.

Both the Jews who lived under the law and the Gentiles were saved by grace through faith, as "evidenced"by the words of Peter:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:8-11).​

Peter said that he was saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way the Gentiles were saved. And Paul says that those who lived under the law and the Getiles were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Ain't your kin up in Dogpatch told you that "works" and "grace" are not compatible?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you one who claims God did not require the Jews to believe, AND be circumcised, AND keep the Law, AND offer sacrifices?

Of the tings you listed only 'believing" was required for salvation,.

Are you one who claims that the Jews who lived under the law had to do more than to believe in order to receive eternal life despite the Lord Jesus' words to the contrary?

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​