ECT The Gospel Proper

[glorydaz]

Please show me where the 12 preached or practiced observance of the law after Pentecost.

What was Peter practicing at this time? Wasn't this after Pentecost?

Acts 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.​

BUT, God has just now shown Peter that there is to be a CHANGE. Something DIFFERENT is taking place.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​

 

[turbosixx]

Who said Im doing away with it? And how about answer the question...

Since the guy didn't have a chance to be baptized, it is my opinion that he is saved because God knows our hearts.

Now my question. What is/was the purpose of water baptism? Scripture support please.

 

[turbosixx]

What was Peter practicing at this time? Wasn't this after Pentecost?

Acts 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.​

BUT, God has just now shown Peter that there is to be a CHANGE. Something DIFFERENT is taking place.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​

You are correct. Sorry, I meant for my question to be, where did the 12 teach the law or teach it's practice? I have no problem with them practicing the law, Paul did so himself. My problem is that they never taught it's observance after Pentecost.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Why would you bring up other baptisms? Jesus says "believes and is baptized will be saved". And we see believers doing just that. Are you saying it's optional which one you want?

Is that a "yes, there are other baptisms besides water" or a "no, there is only water baptism"?

 

[glorydaz]

You are correct. Sorry, I meant for my question to be, where did the 12 teach the law or teach it's practice? I have no problem with them practicing the law, Paul did so himself. My problem is that they never taught it's observance after Pentecost.

Of course they did. Not only that....those people they were preaching to were of the CIRCUMCISION. They were not to keep company with or go to any gentiles. What is it you imagine they were teaching? They were teaching the Law. Unclean people, unclean food, commandment keeping....

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​

 

[Danoh]

This is probably gets me the most. I wasn't the one who said "believes and is baptized will be saved". Our Lord and Savior did. Not only did Jesus say it but "your" apostle practiced EXACTLY that, repeatedly. That goes against what you are preaching and agrees with Jesus and the 12.

WHY in the world would Paul baptize believers if 1) he was not sent to 2) it's not part of "his" gospel. WHY, what possible reason to go against the truth? Please provide scriptural support.

No, turbo, that is you reading what you are asserting it means INTO it.

He said that to the Twelve - the same Twelve He said to pray that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 would not come ON - THE SABBATH DAY.

But you already skipped dealing with the passage that mentions said Sabbath Day - it went right past you - off you went to ask for a passage that shows them "practicing the Law after Pentecost."

Duh-uh, that passage about The Sabbath Day IS one of those passages you are asking for.

:doh:

You've rendered yourself blind to the obvious by your confirmation bias - those passages are all connected to THEM (the Twelve and their ISRAELITE converts) and give one a greater sense of THEIR (the Twelve and their ISRAELITE converts) context.

I'll give you another one - real simple ones, for you are nowhere near ready for meat - heck, even most MADs never get past the milk of these things.

Anyway, see this person here?

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

A disciple of the Lord, right?

Note what Paul could not have gotten away with saying about him to fellow Israelites if it had not been true...

Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

Not only was the man a devout man according to the Law, but so much so that ALL the Jews which dwelt there thought highly of him.

Twist away, Turbo.

Its why you are so clueless on the actual sense of that baptism passage in Mark 16 that you not only so liberally isolate from both the balance of its passages there, but from many other passages its' words are based on.

Again, I don't believe you are up to no good, just not up to par where correctly dealing with such passages are concerned, if you do deal with them, at all.

Isaiah 8:20

 

[Rosenritter]

We should love everyone.

Matthew 5:43-45 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

John 13:34 KJV
(34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Then can we agree that these commandments (above) are universal in application, that these words of Christ are intended for all who hear?

 

[Danoh]

You are correct. Sorry, I meant for my question to be, where did the 12 teach the law or teach it's practice? I have no problem with them practicing the law, Paul did so himself. My problem is that they never taught it's observance after Pentecost.

Duh-uh - Peter's "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;" is another evidence "they were keeping the Law after Pentecost."

Now watch you come up with all sorts of ideas about what all Peter was talking about by that or about what he'd meant by the rest of that passage.

The actual answer to which is found at the end of Acts 7, the end of Romans 2, and going into Romans 3 - which Peter understood, only after his meeting with Paul, in Acts 15, see Galatians 2.

But anyway...

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Why?

Because of passages in THEIR Law, like...

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Acts 17:11,12

 

[Rosenritter]

We should also hate those who do evil, and yes, both love and hate simultaneously, if necessary.

Proverbs 8:13 KJV
(13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I see where we are told to hate evil, not where we are told to hate those who do evil.

 

[glorydaz]

Matthew 5:43-45 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

John 13:34 KJV
(34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Then can we agree that these commandments (above) are universal in application, that these words of Christ are intended for all who hear?

Problem is....the commandments cannot produce any of that.

So why dwell on what cannot be accomplished through commandments?

Which, of course, is the point you keep missing.

 

[Rosenritter]

God hates evil thoughts and actions, not the one doing them.

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Rosenritter]

It's not that they cannot happen.

It's that they do not.

We see many periods in the Bible where God did no miracles for long periods of time.

Why is it so hard to believe that the past 1900 years is just another one of those periods?

I forget whether we went over this or not, but God does certainly perform miracles today. Do you mean that certain types of miracles are not often seen?

 

[drbrumley]

Since the guy didn't have a chance to be baptized, it is my opinion that he is saved because God knows our hearts.

Correct.....so obviously baptism has no saving value then correct. as one's salvation is dependent upon his heart and not like the Pharisees, where they did as a show.

Now my question. What is/was the purpose of water baptism? Scripture support please.

Baptism is an illustration of Gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
Always done AFTER one has become saved.

 

[Danoh]

Matthew 5:43-45 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

John 13:34 KJV
(34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Then can we agree that these commandments (above) are universal in application, that these words of Christ are intended for all who hear?

Where a principle applies in a same way, yes.

Where it applies in a different way, no.

For example, under the Law, keeping "the Law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" Rom. 10:4, is a righteous thing to do, Luke 1:6.

In contrast, this side of the Cross "keeping the Law "FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" is a transgression of Grace, Gal. 2:18.

Where a principle applies in a same way, yes.

Where it applies in a different way, no.

Acts 17:11,12.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe that is the only real concern. If I understand your position correctly, then I'm not in any danger. I believed what y'all have agreed upon as the "gospel proper" with all my heart many many years ago. According to what I've repeatedly read, and debated against, the moment I believed I was added to the BOC and there is nothing that can take that away, OSAS. All my sins are forgiven past and future and I can't loose my salvation. If now say I can loose my salvation then, do you really believe what you preach?

Actually, you remind me of myself. For years I realized there were things that were DIFFERENT between what was preached by the twelve and what Paul preached. I wasn't sure why, but I set it aside instead of trying to force it all to say the same thing.

There were things I hadn't even noticed after nearly forty years of reading the Bible. One was that Jesus came only to the lost sheep of Israel (who were the CIRCUMCISION), and what the cutting off of the Jews and the grafting in of the Gentiles meant, and how it affected those things that were DIFFERENT. Pretending like they aren't different only increases the confusion.

God gave the Jews a period of time to believe their Messiah had come...they had to come as a nation. But when they didn't, God commissioned Paul to preach the Gospel of Grace to all people. Those of the Circumcision who believed, had a hard time accepting the change, as Peter makes clear when he was cleared by God to accept Cornelius.

If you'd stop trying to make Peter and Paul say the same thing, you might see what folks are trying to tell you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Proverbs 8:13 KJV
(13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I see where we are told to hate evil, not where we are told to hate those who do evil.

So does God hate just the hands of the one who does evil?

Or does it make more sense that He hates the one who controls those hands?

I forget whether we went over this or not, but God does certainly perform miracles today.

Would you be so kind as to provide an example of a miracle that happens today?

Do you mean that certain types of miracles are not often seen?

No, I mean that all miracles have ceased for the time being.

 

[Danoh]

A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. - Proverbs 6:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs6:19&version=NKJV

The Bible disagrees with you.

You're applying standards to Gentiles that God had applied only to Israelites.

Back then, Gentiles were without God in the World.

While now, both are under Grace - til this Mystery Grace Age ends, and He speaks in His Wrath - Romans 9 / 2 Thessalonians 2.

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[drbrumley]

No, I mean that all miracles have ceased for the time being.

I don't believe that at all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're applying standards to Gentiles that God had applied only to Israelites.

Back then, Gentiles were without God in the World.

While now, both are under Grace - til this Mystery Grace Age ends, and He speaks in His Wrath - Romans 9 / 2 Thessalonians 2.

Acts 17:11, 12.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Honestly, Danoh, you need to go back and read the CONTEXT of this conversation, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't believe that at all.

Then could you please provide an example of a "modern" miracle?