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Part but not the whole. The whole will, of necessity, include being rescued from damnation becuse condemned mankind is all there is for God's plan, set in Himself and for which man was created.
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ECT The Gospel Preached at Pentecost
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Part but not the whole. The whole will, of necessity, include being rescued from damnation becuse condemned mankind is all there is for God's plan, set in Himself and for which man was created.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerry,
the thought in I Cor 2:7-8 again escapes you. He means those particular people would not have carried it out; someone else would have. We know that because of the Is 53 kind of material in the OT. To see how much of an issue this is, notice that many Jews do not think Is 53 is about Christ even to this day. Rather it is about Israel, they say.
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No surprise you agreed with him; given the passages he left out from both Acts 15 and Galatians 2.
Beyond the truth of Romans 5:8, you are DEFINITELY anemic to the Scripture, bro.
Thus...your consistent...heresy.
:doh:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:doh:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Can Interplanner not see that if Satan had known that crucifying the LORD would have led to his own demise, he would have not done it?
The LORD is smarter than Satan, and you, IP.
The LORD is smarter than Satan, and you, IP.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Once again,
Luke 18
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Will IP humble himself, and accept the truth?
Ooh no it was hidden alright. Until Luke 24 that is where Jesus revealed it to the disciples before He revealed it to Paul.
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Valid point.
But only..to a point.
There IS a contradiction in PETER'S thinking between...
Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And...
16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
What had been behind Peter's misfire in perception?
16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
The Lord rightly EXPECTED them to simply take Him at His Word; end of debate.
Whether or not they had understood what He then added...
16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
He is often depicted "dividing" all that TO them "severally, as He will," but it goes right past their heads.
Why do His Words at times go over their heads?
Why are they at times, found having understood it not, or hidden from their understanding?
Not due to your fool notions that the traditions of men that Judaism had become; was to blame.
That is just you in your ignorant reading of YOUR books based "theology" into all that.
It is what YOU conclude from all that, that is bonkers.
The reality was that they were simple fisherman.
Why did the Lord even pick such simple minded men over the greatest minds and writers of endless books "about" in Israel at that time?
Simple question.
Simple answer.
Followed by looking elsewhere - and not down at the bookstore either, you incompetent - rather; in Scripture ITSELF.
Why did the Lord pick such, at times a headache to him; simple men?
"Why Gus? Why?"
1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Why again?
Why not pick Israel's great minds and "books' based" writers back then?
Why not pick from the so called great writers of endless books "about" that your kind of book worm is ever squirming in delight over, in your endless same, endless "books' based" ignorance?
For their ever so precious King David like hearts for the God of Israel; despite his great stumblings - that is why, you buffoon.
Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
For all your self-deluded claim of some sort of an expertise on Matthew 24 and 25 - those are the men you malign; you fool.
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
:doh:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you have changed your mind since earlier you said that it was revealed in the OT?
It takes a big man to admit his mistakes!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What was the "hidden" wisdom, the 'mystery" of which Paul speaks?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why must you pervert every single thing found in the Scriptures to make them match your discredited ideas? this passage is not about them not wanting to talk about it but instead about them not knowing:
"And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken" (Lk.18:34).
Your ideas are RIDICULOUS! According to you the Apostles had gone throughout the towns of Israel and preached that the lord Jesus died for their sins. But then later when the Lord Jesus told them that He was going to die they just forgot what they had been preaching!
In other words, you would have us believe that they just forgot the gospel of their salvation!!!
It just slipped their minds, every single one of them. lol
STP,
As is OFTEN the case in Scripture; so in that passage - the sense or meaning of what is said in the middle part of that passage has already been defined by what precedes it in that same passage.
It is then defined once more in that same passage, by what follows it.
The passaage is describing that they had found what he had said there, was beyond their ability to put two and two together right, as simple men.
Though all they'd had to do was ask Him.
Case in point of another time where that happened...
Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 16:7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 16:10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
The poor Lord - He sure had His work cut out with what TV personality: Svengoolie refers to as "our boys" when describing a prior episode of the ever loved "Three Stooges" :chuckle:
Another "episode..."
Luke 9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither. 9:42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. 9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 9:45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
They had simply not yet learned to deny themselves a bit more - to that point of denying one's own reasoning- in favor of the Lord's viewpoint; on one thing or another.
Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Psalms 119:169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Fools...overly simplistic in where they looked at things from...at times.
Those moments we all experience...
Those moments of..."here are your keys - right - where - you - left - them - had they been a snake; they would have bitten you!" lol
How do I know such had been the case?
What saith the Scripture to such a question?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
All they'd had to do was ask Him.
For theirs was the Kingdom - that Prophesied aspect of the Kingdom of God, Mark 1:14-21; Luke 12:42.
Theirs had not been that aspect of the Kingdom of God that is the Mystery first preached and written of, by the Apostle Paul; Rom. 16:25-26.
Jerry you stepped in in. I'm just so proud to have been the one to lay the trap. Cause you don't step in it very often. But you done did step all up in it haha.
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Interplanner
Well-known member
And what is your name for Peter's 3 answers?
You see, if they didn't want to talk about it (Mk 9:32 is where this all starts), they had to know it was going to happen BUT SAY that they did not so they were not responsible for it or for their actions. "They were afraid to ask him about it."
They thought Judaism was developing right along and offering people forgiveness of sins and justification for being humble (Lk 18:14) apart from the messy rejection of Christ, which would certainly mean their own unpopularity and rejection.
How little you know about what was going on. Don't do theology first. Do character study first.
How could they think of the 'rising' again of Lk 18:33 as the enthronement David talked about? They went into self-protection mode and said they were blank about what he was talking about.
Well said!
Interplanner
Well-known member
nonsense. there is no other meaning there in Acts 2. Just move through the 'plain meaning' and what is the punchline of Peter.
Oh, I forgot: if the plain meaning conflicts with 2P2P, then it is 'not there.'
Oh, I forgot: if the plain meaning conflicts with 2P2P, then it is 'not there.'
Yours is the Trumper's alternate "fact" delusion long ago preceded by Preterism.
In your case - Alternate Preterism
Interplanner
Well-known member
Please try to support your points here
Here my friends,
God's program with Israel.
They exit Egypt
They receive the 613 Commandments
They fail under Moses
They fail under the Judges
They demand king
Towards the end of the Monarchial phase God begins to send in the prophets that begin foretelling a future kingdom of Israel with a God Man King the Messiah
Isaiah prophecies for the first time that the Messiah would be put to death for the sins of the people
They are led into captivity in Babylon
The prophets prophecy of the Messiah's reign from Jerusalem and the end of the times of the Gentiles
John the Baptist preaches that the Messiah is here and the kingdom will be put into reality
Messiah is born just as was told
Messiah begins ministry of offering the kingdom to Israel
Messiah is rejected by Israel in Mt 12
Messiah institutes a policy of silence and now teaches only his disciples what will happen to the kingdom now that it was rejected but for the nation Messiah only gives them parables so that they can't understand His new mission (only new to them but not to God nor to the prophet Isaiah who predicted all of this).
The disciples are confused as to why the kingdom ain't droppin like its hot right then n there
Messiah explains that He must be killed and the Peter protests
Messiah gives His life for man's sins and is buried and resurrected
The disciples are depressed and confused at this point they had already acknowledged Messiah as God but still want the end to gentile domination
Messiah meets with His disciples and opens their understanding to all of the scriptures that taught of His substitutionary death burial and resurrection from the OT scriptures
Messiah tells disciples to witness of His sacrificial offering for sin to the Jews and to the nations but they must wait for the Spirit
They wait, they are born into the Body of Messiah and
Preach the kingdom again? No
Preach the gospel of Christ and Jews are saved followed by Samaritans followed by Cornelius and the Gentiles
This ain't hard
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God's program with Israel.
They exit Egypt
They receive the 613 Commandments
They fail under Moses
They fail under the Judges
They demand king
Towards the end of the Monarchial phase God begins to send in the prophets that begin foretelling a future kingdom of Israel with a God Man King the Messiah
Isaiah prophecies for the first time that the Messiah would be put to death for the sins of the people
They are led into captivity in Babylon
The prophets prophecy of the Messiah's reign from Jerusalem and the end of the times of the Gentiles
John the Baptist preaches that the Messiah is here and the kingdom will be put into reality
Messiah is born just as was told
Messiah begins ministry of offering the kingdom to Israel
Messiah is rejected by Israel in Mt 12
Messiah institutes a policy of silence and now teaches only his disciples what will happen to the kingdom now that it was rejected but for the nation Messiah only gives them parables so that they can't understand His new mission (only new to them but not to God nor to the prophet Isaiah who predicted all of this).
The disciples are confused as to why the kingdom ain't droppin like its hot right then n there
Messiah explains that He must be killed and the Peter protests
Messiah gives His life for man's sins and is buried and resurrected
The disciples are depressed and confused at this point they had already acknowledged Messiah as God but still want the end to gentile domination
Messiah meets with His disciples and opens their understanding to all of the scriptures that taught of His substitutionary death burial and resurrection from the OT scriptures
Messiah tells disciples to witness of His sacrificial offering for sin to the Jews and to the nations but they must wait for the Spirit
They wait, they are born into the Body of Messiah and
Preach the kingdom again? No
Preach the gospel of Christ and Jews are saved followed by Samaritans followed by Cornelius and the Gentiles
This ain't hard
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