The Gospel Of Thomas

[noguru]

I see you edited your post.....

Yes nobody can do this thing called love for others by themselves. It must come from understanding real spiritual principles. We must want to do it and we must want it more than everything else. God will do the rest. IOW, be a man after God's own heart.

Teachings against "works" is detrimental to ones spiritual progress, in my estimation.

We are not saved by our works, because if we were, those same fruitless people would boast of their own accomplishments (because that is all that many will see), and lead more astray. This is about a healthy balance of pride and humility. Without that balance, no works are done, or they are done out of an unstable motivation. They still remain God's works because God created us. None of this is teaching against works.

On the beam:

1. Acceptance
2. Honesty
3. Faith
4. Courage
5. Considerate
6. Humility
7. Giving
8. Calm
9. Grateful
10. Patience
11. Tolerance
12. Forgiveness
13. Love
14. Self – Forgetfulness
15. Humility
16. Modesty
17. Self – Forgiveness
18. Trust
19. Moderation
20. Action

Off the beam

1.) Rejection
2.) Dishonest
3.) Fear
4.) Frightened
5.) Inconsiderate
6.) Pride
7.) Greedy
8.) Anger
9.) Envy
10.) Impatient
11.) Intolerant
12.) Resentment
13.) Hate
14.) Self-Pity
15.) Self - Justification
16.) Self - Importance
17.) Self - Condemnation
18.) Suspicion
19.) Gluttony
20.) Sloth

Now I hope I do not have to clarify how such descriptions are meant as cautionary flags. Not that for example, we have to accept everything. We do have to accept everything that happened in the past, though we do not have to approve. Yet we do not have to allow people into our domain that are currently behaving inappropriately.

 

[unknown]

Jesus serves as the example for those who find forgiveness too monumental of a task for their own capabilities, because they have trapped themselves "in the world". Of course there are many who refuse to acknowledge this reality.

If a person can't love others. God has not transformed them. They must first love God more than anything.

 

[noguru]

If a person can't love others. God has not transformed them. They must first love God more than anything.

Leaving out any discussion of "invincible ignorance", I agree.

Generally this is due to that person not being honest with themselves, there are such unfortunates. And this is another reason why Jesus came, serving as the supreme example and to give courage, where none could be found in ourselves.

 

[unknown]

We are not saved by our works, because if we were, those same fruitless people would boast of their own accomplishments (because that is all that many will see), and lead more astray. This is about a healthy balance of pride and humility. Without that balance, no works are done, or they are done out of an unstable motivation. They still remain God's works because God created us. None of this is teaching against works.

I have said nothing about what "saves" a person. Yes, people feel a need to be "saved" and they can't do it because of the very nature they were created with. That is what we must overcome; our own created nature.


Saying 70

(70) Jesus said, "That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you."

God's image is within us, we have to find it and bring it out.

 

[noguru]

I have said nothing about what "saves" a person. Yes, people feel a need to be "saved" and they can't do it because of the very nature they were created with. That is what we must overcome; our own created nature.


Saying 70

(70) Jesus said, "That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you."

God's image is within us, we have to find it and bring it out.

:up:

Interestingly enough, I was not drawn back to Christianity after a 17 year hiatus because of a desire for individual eternal salvation. I was drawn back because I could not abandon the value of certain principles. Those principles were/are epitomized in the incarnation of Christ. Even in my 17 agnostic years I believed in Jesus' ministry here on earth, though I had no faith in His deity.

Salvation begins right here and now. We do not have to wait.

There is another similar saying in 12 step rooms:

You cannot give it away, if you do not already have it.

What I highlighted is something worth considering more thoroughly. A common theme throughout the OT and NT is (individuals and/or groups) humans trying to possess (meaning hijack) "the law" or valuable principles. But in reality these principles were not created by the hand of man. Humans can only serve as a conduit to carry these principles. The only thing we can improve is our individual integrity to hold and/or carry these principles. We cannot force it on others, nor should we completely rely on others to do it for us.

Reach out your hand if your cup be empty,
If your cup is full may it be again,
Let it be known there is a fountain,
That was not made by the hands of men.

There is a road, no simple highway,
Between the dawn and the dark of night,
And if you go no one may follow,
That path is for your steps alone.

- Robert Hunter

 

[jeremysdemo]

I will not renounce the title "Christian" simply because some people fallaciously use it as a label to compensate for their own laziness and/or cowardice.

I respect your position,

indeed the title means many different things to many people.

I think of Jesus and the example he set for us, he could have taken on any religious title of his day but yet in the record we have none, but Son of Man or rabbi but not "Jew" as a group designation.

 

[lifeisgood]

Build all the straw men you want.

Part of my Christian testimony was published in the April 9th, 2000 edition of USA Weekend and Tulsa World. it was read by hundreds of millions of people in this country. Where can I read your testimony of what God has done in your life?

I am no longer Christian because of thousands of fundamentalist believers who are trusting in Jesus to save them instead of getting off their butts and doing what Jesus said to do. Suit yourself, Christian, you can believe and wait for something to happen or you can get involved and watch God at work. I prefer the later.

 

[freelight]

Solitary ones.............

Solitary ones.............

the Patterson/ Robinson translation of the coptic reads:

4) And they will stand as solitary ones."

the word here is translated "a single one" also found in verse

49) Jesus said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."

and also

75)Jesus said, "Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."

which has a synopsis to

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen."

The 'solitary' or 'single' ones may also refer to the 'singular' or 'alone' nature, which is of an individual purity or integrity, one wholly surrendered to the divine reality, the virgin spirit within, which makes them wholly one with the kingdom of heaven in this world and in all worlds. The solitary ones enter the bridal chamber (the divine marriage) unspotted, recepients of 'full communion'. They are already in 'at-one-ment' in the Spirit, abiding in the original realm from whence they came, and to which they shall return, of whose nature they are already, since the 'outer' and the 'inner', the 'male' and the 'female' are merged into their essential unity.

All springs from The One (the All) and returns to The One (the All).



pj

 

[freelight]

firey stones (burning coals)........

firey stones (burning coals)........

To me this is the BIG ONE, from a esoteric or hidden perspective, this verse is the MOST controversial,rejected,feared,enlightening and misunderstood thing Jesus ever said...

Ill let some ppl chime in ,but I want to just say if anyone would have a problem about this Book,it should be here and not about something about gender or alms.

If I might add something else about saying 13 (Paterson Brown translation below) in which he posits that the '3 words' spoken by Jesus were the divine Name "ehyeh asher ehyeh" -

13. Yeshua says to his Disciples: Make a comparison to me, and tell me whom I resemble.¹ || Shimon° Kefa says to him: Thou art like a righteous angel. || Matthew° says to him: Thou art like a philosopher° of the heart. || Thomas says to him: Oh Teacher, my mouth will not contain saying whom thou art like! || Yeshua says: I'm not thy teacher, now that thou have drunk,² thou have become inebriated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out. And he takes him,² he withdraws,² he speaks three words to him:


ahyh ashr ahyh
I-Am who I-Am


Now when Thomas comes to his comrades, they inquire of him: What did Yeshua say to thee? || Thomas says to them: If I tell you even one of the words which he spoke to me, you will take up stones to cast at me—and fire will come from the stones to consume you. (¹Isa 46:5; ²asyndeton; the Name does not appear in the papyrus, but can be inferred with certainty; Ex 3:14, Lev 24:16, Mk 14:62, Lk 6:40, Jn 4:14/15:1, Th 61b/77, Ph 125; Odes of St. Solomon, 11:6-9, ‘I drank and was inebriated with the living water that does not die’; note also the infinite gematria of Ex 3:14)

Here the '3 words' include and encompass the fullness of Deity, if Jesus did utter the 'divine name' (the tetragrammaton). The '3 words' may also connote a 'Trinity' of Deity (Father, Mother, Son) or 3 conceptual levels of the divine man (Adam Kadmon), Jesus being a pure personification of, yet also revealing that same divine identity to be within every soul as the 'atman'.

The revealing of any part of the 'secret words' of Jesus by Thomas to one un-ready or unqualified to receive such would be worse than casting pearls before swine, thru a misconceived concept of 'blasphemy' engrained by tradition or just the uninitiated mind revolting at a truth too profound to accept on first hearing.

Since the original question Jesus was asking was concerning his 'identity' and 'resemblence', it was an inquiry of 'substance' and 'form', as in the synoptic accounts where he says "who do men say that I am?" - to which Peter answered correctly to he being the 'Christ', the 'Son of God', a truth revealed only by the heavenly Father ("a man can receive nothing unless it be given to him from 'heaven'). The revelation of such dawns in every mirror of consciousness, revealing a collective sonship, an indivisible community. The solitary ones united in 'God' are individually perfect, whose perfection mirrors the heavenly. ("as above, so below").


pj

 

[JosephR]

I will not renounce the title "Christian" simply because some people fallaciously use it as a label to compensate for their own laziness and/or cowardice.

Why must I always explain

I think the only title I am worthy of is student.

I study many things however,but Jesus of Nazareth is my biggest teacher.

I do not don the title christian for much the same reason as unknown,I just want to do what Jesus said and seek the truth.

 

[JosephR]

If I might add something else about saying 13 (Paterson Brown translation below) in which he posits that the '3 words' spoken by Jesus were the divine Name "ehyeh asher ehyeh" -



Here the '3 words' include and encompass the fullness of Deity, if Jesus did utter the 'divine name' (the tetragrammaton). The '3 words' may also connote a 'Trinity' of Deity (Father, Mother, Son) or 3 conceptual levels of the divine man (Adam Kadmon), Jesus being a pure personification of, yet also revealing that same divine identity to be within every soul as the 'atman'.

The revealing of any part of the 'secret words' of Jesus by Thomas to one un-ready or unqualified to receive such would be worse than casting pearls before swine, thru a misconceived concept of 'blasphemy' engrained by tradition or just the uninitiated mind revolting at a truth too profound to accept on first hearing.

Since the original question Jesus was asking was concerning his 'identity' and 'resemblence', it was an inquiry of 'substance' and 'form', as in the synoptic accounts where he says "who do men say that I am?" - to which Peter answered correctly to he being the 'Christ', the 'Son of God', a truth revealed only by the heavenly Father ("a man can receive nothing unless it be given to him from 'heaven'). The revelation of such dawns in every mirror of consciousness, revealing a collective sonship, an indivisible community. The solitary ones united in 'God' are individually perfect, whose perfection mirrors the heavenly. ("as above, so below").


pj

Yes the implications of Him speaking the highest truth to Thomas here is mind blowing.. thats why I said this is the BIG one.

The translation I was fond of in esoteric study was "I Am that,I Am"
meaning He is EVERYTHING.. I know there is a word for people who believe God is in everything,but I dont like to be defined by groups that I give them no authority to judge me. I am sure many call me a Heretic, because I believe God Is ONE, and GOD is infinity.But when it comes my time to answer face to face I know I have been as respectful and continued to refine and hone my respect for the Created the best of my ability.

I also find one of the best ways to respect God is to tactically destroy the ego.I know EVERYTHING I do serves the self,from breathing and eating to impure thoughts and all sin.And I wish to destroy that.

I certainly do not wish to disrespect the Son of Man either.But I cannot accept man made doctrines,and I believe that allmost every attempt of man made religion does this.I think this is why Jesus told us to worship the Father in spirit.In your mind is the Kingdom of Heaven and the only thing standing in my way is my ego....
I feel like praying,, PRAISE GOD!:cloud9:

 

[jeremysdemo]

The 'solitary' or 'single' ones may also refer to the 'singular' or 'alone' nature, which is of an individual purity or integrity, one wholly surrendered to the divine reality, the virgin spirit within, which makes them wholly one with the kingdom of heaven in this world and in all worlds. The solitary ones enter the bridal chamber (the divine marriage) unspotted, recepients of 'full communion'. They are already in 'at-one-ment' in the Spirit, abiding in the original realm from whence they came, and to which they shall return, of whose nature they are already, since the 'outer' and the 'inner', the 'male' and the 'female' are merged into their essential unity.

All springs from The One (the All) and returns to The One (the All).



pj

that makes sense, as Messiah said

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

 

[JosephR]

that makes sense, as Messiah said

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

it makes to much sense to be accepted.. to make them different is to explain and define to Jesus and the Father what they are,,what an ego that must take.. I wont do it.

 

[jeremysdemo]

John 15 comes to mind.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[freelight]

Esoteric teaching of Jesus.......

Esoteric teaching of Jesus.......

John 15 comes to mind.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We may note that Thomas and John share some basic gnostic parallels as far as the esoteric teaching of Jesus is concerned, even though some 'redactions' within the gospel of John were crafted to take on an anti-gnostic flavor. - the core essentials of John's teaching remains 'esoteric', agreeing with sentiments in the GOT on some levels, while the synoptics carry on a more literal/historical exoteric dimension.

What we have to work with are the canonical gospels, non-canonical records and other resources intimating the teachings of Jesus, - all ought to be consulted, realizing as well that some records may be lost, awaiting new discovery (unearthed), or 'tapped in' from other spiritual channels. - the quest to 'determine' what Jesus actually taught is a feat in itself, when surveying the more skeptical criticism on the gospels themselves, and the theorized "Q" of which the GOT may have drawn from or been a revised limited version of. Beyond all those technicalities there is only the Spirit of truth itself to consult, until more material supports for Jesus teaching appear, and even then it is the wisdom from the Spirit that must translate their true meaning...ultimately.


My former response to TCM holds here in these respects.

 

[freelight]

The startling truth...............

The startling truth...............

Yes the implications of Him speaking the highest truth to Thomas here is mind blowing.. thats why I said this is the BIG one.

The translation I was fond of in esoteric study was "I Am that,I Am"
meaning He is EVERYTHING.. I know there is a word for people who believe God is in everything,but I dont like to be defined by groups that I give them no authority to judge me. I am sure many call me a Heretic, because I believe God Is ONE, and GOD is infinity.But when it comes my time to answer face to face I know I have been as respectful and continued to refine and hone my respect for the Created the best of my ability.

I also find one of the best ways to respect God is to tactically destroy the ego.I know EVERYTHING I do serves the self,from breathing and eating to impure thoughts and all sin.And I wish to destroy that.

I certainly do not wish to disrespect the Son of Man either.But I cannot accept man made doctrines,and I believe that allmost every attempt of man made religion does this.I think this is why Jesus told us to worship the Father in spirit.In your mind is the Kingdom of Heaven and the only thing standing in my way is my ego....
I feel like praying,, PRAISE GOD!:cloud9:

Yes,....'Religion' itself is the interior reflection of 'God' within the soul.

The truth of it shatters all false images, concepts and beliefs, when it is 'realized', and it can be realized nowhere else but in one's own 'being'.

When the individual self is subsumed in the greater or Higher Self and that 'God-presence' has the pre-eminence,....the 'I AM' Alone is King, for that divine Self not only reigns over all, but is All. It is this 'non-dual' (non-separate, non-different) realization of Life that is the core-revelation of mysticism, the universal ground of reality itself, of the pure awareness itself that is behind the mind and all relative perceptions. That prior knowing or conscious light is the God-essence, is the One and All.

Nothing is perceived or known beyond the 'I Am'.


pj

 

[unknown]

Well, the ground is too wet to run my tractor for a few days and most of my errands have been run, so here I am again.

Where were we?

 

[noguru]

I think the only title I am worthy of is student.

I study many things however,but Jesus of Nazareth is my biggest teacher.

I do not don the title christian for much the same reason as unknown,I just want to do what Jesus said and seek the truth.

In the end, what you label yourself does not matter anyway. What matters is what you believed and what you did for those beliefs.

 

[noguru]

Well, the ground is too wet to run my tractor for a few days and most of my errands have been run, so here I am again.

Where were we?

Glad you are back, brother.

 

[unknown]

In the end, what you label yourself does not matter anyway. What matters is what you believed and what you did for those beliefs.

Jesus asked, "Who do men say I am?", He also said, "If I testify of myself, my testimony is false".

What a person says about themselves really makes little difference to others. A Kabbalist does not say he is a Kabbalist because if he truly is a Kabbalist others will say it. In general, Holy people do not claim Holiness but others will see them that way if they are truly Holy.