The Gospel Of Thomas

unknown

New member
20
The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like”.
He said to them, “It is like a mustard seed. It is the smallest of all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky”.
I find it amusing that saying 20 came up on page 20. ???




Daniel 4:10-12
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. 11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: 12 the leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.
19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies. 20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; 21 whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: 22 it is thou, O king, .....
The Kabbalists talk about the tree of life. It is a metaphor used to explain the forces at work inside us. Jesus said the kingdom is within and He also likened it to a mustard seed. He spoke a parable that told of the seed being scattered and the different places the seed fell.

Ezekiel 17:22-24
22 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: 23 in the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. 24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it.
Ezekiel 31:1-9 (AKJV)

1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude;

Whom art thou like in thy greatness?

3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches,
and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature;
and his top was among the thick boughs.
4 The waters made him great,
the deep set him up on high
with her rivers running round about his plants,
and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field,
and his boughs were multiplied,
and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters,
when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs,
and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young,
and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness,
in the length of his branches:
for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him:
the fir trees were not like his boughs,
and the chesnut trees were not like his branches;
nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches:
so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
 
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jeremysdemo

New member
you could study the parable of the mustard seed for years and still not get every nuance of meaning.

to me the Kingdom is when we join in creation with God, just as the Son did.

like the universe started as something tiny, but now holds the population of all God's creation.

so too, in the Kingdom something very small (mustard seed within) grows exponentially into something large enough to support/shelter other facets of creation (birds).

those branches ever reaching upward in growth, planted by the water, Psalm 1:3 comes to mind.
 
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unknown

New member
you could study the parable of the mustard seed for years and still not get every nuance of meaning.

to me the Kingdom is when we join in creation with God, just as the Son did.

like the universe started as something tiny, but now holds the population of all God's creation.

so too, in the Kingdom something very small (mustard seed within) grows exponentially into something large enough to support/shelter other facets of creation (birds).

those branches ever reaching upward in growth, planted by the water, Psalm 1:3 comes to mind.

I planted my first garden last year. Tilled up the back yard, cultivated, planted seed, watered, and watched my small crop grow. As I worked in the garden I thought on creation and this "miracle" of the seed.

It reminded me of the chicken or the egg question. Never the less, I marveled at how, from the very beginning, life was made to continue generation after generation.
 

jeremysdemo

New member
I planted my first garden last year. Tilled up the back yard, cultivated, planted seed, watered, and watched my small crop grow. As I worked in the garden I thought on creation and this "miracle" of the seed.

It reminded me of the chicken or the egg question. Never the less, I marveled at how, from the very beginning, life was made to continue generation after generation.

been a farmer all my life, those idioms certainly are not lost on the simple minded :)

when u start from seed it is better, the longer you cultivate from the same seed line the better it gets since the plants adapt to their environment and pass that information onto seedlings.

a tradition of sorts....nature imitates life. :)
 

JosephR

New member
I planted my first garden last year. Tilled up the back yard, cultivated, planted seed, watered, and watched my small crop grow. As I worked in the garden I thought on creation and this "miracle" of the seed.

It reminded me of the chicken or the egg question. Never the less, I marveled at how, from the very beginning, life was made to continue generation after generation.


I had a thought last summer and I will try to recall, it was about a seed , and being self aware.the seed grows into a plant and wonders where it come from. Then I thought what is the reason we wonder where we come from as it doesn't really serve any purpose and is out of the normal programming of most life forms. What if we do beat the system so to speak, have we defeated the purpose or have we fulfilled it. Are we just random matter that came together and became self aware? .. I thought on this for a long time and still am. I try to not only ask good questions and recognize them but also to question the question itself and where it came from..

Alan watts said a student asked the master,, teacher who am I, and the teacher replied,, who asks..... And indeed.. Who asks.


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noguru

Well-known member
I had a thought last summer and I will try to recall, it was about a seed , and being self aware.the seed grows into a plant and wonders where it come from. Then I thought what is the reason we wonder where we come from as it doesn't really serve any purpose and is out of the normal programming of most life forms. What if we do beat the system so to speak, have we defeated the purpose or have we fulfilled it. Are we just random matter that came together and became self aware? .. I thought on this for a long time and still am. I try to not only ask good questions and recognize them but also to question the question itself and where it came from..

Alan watts said a student asked the master,, teacher who am I, and the teacher replied,, who asks..... And indeed.. Who asks.


Posted from the TOL App!

Ultimately it does not matter what our conclusion is in this regard, especially if it is inaccurate. I have done quite a bit of pondering on this specific issue ever since I was child fishing on some lonely stretch of river. All of the universe is like a river, it comes from somewhere and it is going somewhere else. So I will leave you with a quote which brings it all into perspective for me.

Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs.
I am haunted by waters.


― Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It and Other Stories
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
The 'seed' of 'God'.....'creative power'.......

The 'seed' of 'God'.....'creative power'.......

20
The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like”.
He said to them, “It is like a mustard seed. It is the smallest of all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky”.

Cross-referencing the synoptic parallels:

30 Then He said, “To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? 31 It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; 32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.”

- Mark 4:30-32

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

- Matthew 13:30-32

18 Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large[a] tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.”

-Luke - Luke 13:17-19
~*~*~

Jesus further uses the 'mustard seed' metaphor in the 'exercising of faith', being the quality and potential of the 'faith' that is being generated. - in some case such as in 'exorcism'(in below example)...much 'prayer' and 'fasting' is essential to purify and empower the ministers.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;[a] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

- Matt. 17:19-21


5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

- Luke 17:5-6

The 'seed' of 'God' within us, is that creative-potential and power whereby we do the works of God, expanding the kingdom of heaven in the earth-realm.



pj
 

unknown

New member
(21) Mary said to Jesus, "Whom are your disciples like?"
He said, "They are like children who have settled in a field which is not theirs. When the owners of the field come, they will say, 'Let us have back our field.' They (will) undress in their presence in order to let them have back their field and to give it back to them. Therefore I say, if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming, he will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through into his house of his domain to carry away his goods. You, then, be on your guard against the world. Arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you, for the difficulty which you expect will (surely) materialize. Let there be among you a man of understanding. When the grain ripened, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."
I'll have to do some thinkin on this one.
 

unknown

New member
The field is physical existence. (life in this world).

"When the owners of the field come means", when physical existence is ended.

"They will undress". means they will strip off their bodies. The Gnostics say, as do the Kabbalists, that the soul is "clothed" in a body. They will not be ashamed because there is nothing to be ashamed of in dying.

I'm still working on the last part.
 

JosephR

New member
(21) Mary said to Jesus, "Whom are your disciples like?"
He said, "They are like children who have settled in a field which is not theirs. When the owners of the field come, they will say, 'Let us have back our field.' They (will) undress in their presence in order to let them have back their field and to give it back to them. Therefore I say, if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming, he will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through into his house of his domain to carry away his goods. You, then, be on your guard against the world. Arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you, for the difficulty which you expect will (surely) materialize. Let there be among you a man of understanding. When the grain ripened, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."


The field is physical existence. (life in this world).

"When the owners of the field come means", when physical existence is ended.

"They will undress". means they will strip off their bodies. The Gnostics say, as do the Kabbalists, that the soul is "clothed" in a body. They will not be ashamed because there is nothing to be ashamed of in dying.

I'm still working on the last part.


Yeah I agree here,When the natural death come the earth will reclaim there bodies.
 

unknown

New member
I'll be taking a short break from TOL for a while. Before I go I'll share another thought on the Gospel of Thomas.


There was a collection of 52 texts found in Nag Hammadi Eqypt in 1945. There are only 22 texts in the New Testament. It is estimated that the 22 were selected out of roughly 100 texts circulating in the first, second and third centuries of the early Christian church.

In the fourth century, a canon was established and 75% of the existing Christian texts at the time were declared heretical. Only texts that supported the death burial and resurrection of Jesus were included in the Roman church canon. By a decree of the Roman church, all beliefs outside that church were declared hearses.

I have to wonder, why these Egyptian followers of Thomas (the text is written in the name of Thomas) would not have one word to say about the resurrection of Jesus? GoT is dated earlier than the four gospels found in the NT. The people that wrote these texts lived in the first 100 years after the time of Jesus. Why did the texts that speak of wisdom outnumber the texts that speak of death, burial and resurrection more than 3 to 1?

The idea of a man paying the price for the sins of all men is a very foreign concept to the God of the Torah. It represents an 180 degree turnaround for God's attitude toward sin. If Jesus taught His disciples about His death, burial and resurrection why didn't Thomas teach it to his followers? There are others besides Thomas who didn't say a word about such things. None of them believed that salvation had anything to do with the such a doctrine. I imagine the difference is that, what was taught in Rome was for the Pagan audience, who were the ones that destroyed Judea in the first place. The people of Judea and the surrounding countries could never accept this Roman view of The Creator and bow down to the church in Rome.

TTFN
 

lifeisgood

New member
I have to wonder, why these Egyptian followers of Thomas (the text is written in the name of Thomas) would not have one word to say about the resurrection of Jesus?

Now let's see, 'cause they did not believe in the real Jesus like so many in these moderns times that are always denigrating the work of the Cross?

If Jesus taught His disciples about His death, burial and resurrection why didn't Thomas teach it to his followers?

Were you there to ascertain this to be the truth?

There are others besides Thomas who didn't say a word about such things. None of them believed that salvation had anything to do with the such a doctrine.

How do you know for a certainty that NONE of them BELIEVED?
 

JosephR

New member
I'll be taking a short break from TOL for a while. Before I go I'll share another thought on the Gospel of Thomas.


There was a collection of 52 texts found in Nag Hammadi Eqypt in 1945. There are only 22 texts in the New Testament. It is estimated that the 22 were selected out of roughly 100 texts circulating in the first, second and third centuries of the early Christian church.

In the fourth century, a canon was established and 75% of the existing Christian texts at the time were declared heretical. Only texts that supported the death burial and resurrection of Jesus were included in the Roman church canon. By a decree of the Roman church, all beliefs outside that church were declared hearses.

I have to wonder, why these Egyptian followers of Thomas (the text is written in the name of Thomas) would not have one word to say about the resurrection of Jesus? GoT is dated earlier than the four gospels found in the NT. The people that wrote these texts lived in the first 100 years after the time of Jesus. Why did the texts that speak of wisdom outnumber the texts that speak of death, burial and resurrection more than 3 to 1?

The idea of a man paying the price for the sins of all men is a very foreign concept to the God of the Torah. It represents an 180 degree turnaround for God's attitude toward sin. If Jesus taught His disciples about His death, burial and resurrection why didn't Thomas teach it to his followers? There are others besides Thomas who didn't say a word about such things. None of them believed that salvation had anything to do with the such a doctrine. I imagine the difference is that, what was taught in Rome was for the Pagan audience, who were the ones that destroyed Judea in the first place. The people of Judea and the surrounding countries could never accept this Roman view of The Creator and bow down to the church in Rome.

TTFN
I have gotten a job that works 11 hours a day 6 days a week at the local power plant cleaning out the boiler, it will only last two more weeks so I will be limited on my time here as well till then.

I have looked into what you are saying as well but not as deep, but have came to the same conclusion about the canon.,an as far as an issue that has as much weight as salvation and eternal life I have decided a while back I do not trust men and especially the heavily politically fueled agenda as the early Roman Catholic Church made to make pagans and Christians both compromise religion in order to keep a stable church state and establish control of the population of that time,,, however beliefs , doctrines , egos and pride must be dealt with when you assertion all this info for yourself, a hard thing to do especially if you were brought up being taught the orthodox beliefs but then also of others who think you are treading on there very heartfelt beliefs as well.

So this is mine and unknowns personal beliefs and many others and I hope it doesn't offend anyone but with the info available I believe it's the right view.


Thank you so much unknown for sharing your time and wisdom and I hope to keep this study going but at a slower rate.

I


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freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
The Nag Hammadi Library.....

The Nag Hammadi Library.....

Now let's see, 'cause they did not believe in the real Jesus like so many in these moderns times that are always denigrating the work of the Cross?

We'd have to survey the entire collection of scripts found at Nag Hammadi first, to get a comprehensive picture of how 'gnostic' the writings are and how far from later evolved 'orthodox' theology they are. The question of who the 'real Jesus' is is an enigma in itself, since many different 'versions' of Jesus exist. I don't think you can determine if an 'orthodox' version of Jesus is anymore authentic or fictional than a 'Gnostic' one until you've researched it out.

Emphasis on the 'cross' or a 'blood-atonement' thru such symbolism is emphasized in letters ascribed to Paul, - yet even if one accepts or rejects such a 'concept'...the wisdom-teaching of Jesus and the value of direct experiential knowledge of 'God' (the kingdom of heaven, the 'inner divinity', the 'Higher Self') remains ever the primary 'essential'.

Were you there to ascertain this to be the truth?

If just going by the GOT, we don't know if Jesus did not teach about a physical resurrection, accepting that the collection of sayings may not be a complete record of his teaching anyways. However, gnostic writings in general may not emphasize such as traditional-orthodox Christianity does, so that 'enlightenment' without such could be deemed just as possible thru direct intuitive realization of the 'truth' Jesus taught. A dying man-god savior-image may be unnecessary to one's direct experience of the divine, although such could represent certain inner psychological transformations within the soul in its awakening process, so we use such 'symbols' as 'figurative'.

How do you know for a certainty that NONE of them BELIEVED?

We can only know what the texts say for themselves, within that given context. The rest would be speculation from data available of the given time period and the faith-community concerned.

Nag Hammadi Library

Wiki Portal


pj
 

unknown

New member
Now let's see, 'cause they did not believe in the real Jesus like so many in these moderns times that are always denigrating the work of the Cross?



Were you there to ascertain this to be the truth?



How do you know for a certainty that NONE of them BELIEVED?
You make me wonder what it is that you have done that is so horrible you don't feel you can take responsibility for it. Why do you feel God had to die or have His son crucified in order to fix your transgression? I really don't think you've done anything that God had to die to fix. You think too much of yourself.
 

lifeisgood

New member
You make me wonder what it is that you have done that is so horrible you don't feel you can take responsibility for it.

If I offended you in any way and you were really offended and I came and I asked you to forgive me, would that make it all OK with you? Would you forget what I did even though I asked your forgiveness and you supposedly forgave me? You might say yes, however, I have people who still after I have asked forgiveness and have been given the supposedly forgiveness, still once in a while, reminds me....'do you remember when you did such and such?' Would you say that was real forgiveness. God doesn't. He says that when we ask Him for forgiveness He places that sin into the sea of forgetfulness.

Now, how can God place my sin in the sea of forgetfulness if He has not made a way for Him to do so? Well, He did ---- it is ---- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

I do take responsibility for my sins, I humble myself to God and ask Him to work in my life and perfect me as He is perfect; and that can only happens by me being in Him and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

It humbles me to no end that HE DECIDED that HE would do something so that I could get to Him.

Why do you feel God had to die or have His son crucified in order to fix your transgression?

Because that is what He DECIDED since BEFORE the foundation of the world and I am not He, 'cause if I were He, even I would not exist anymore. The God I serve is an awesome God. He did everything; making for me the way to get to Him.

I really don't think you've done anything that God had to die to fix. You think too much of yourself.

God decided that the only thing He will ACCEPT is what comes from Him. Nothing that I DO means absolutely anything to Him so that I can get to Him. Only Him and what He did at the Cross of Calvary will He accept; therefore, because I think too much of myself, as you put it, I accept His judgment on my live, which is DEATH, but what an awesome God I serve that He deemed that He did not want to destroy me and gave me the opportunity to be part of His family.

Praise God I do not have to die anymore! God will accept me as His own because of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary and that is a incredible thought to ponder.
 

unknown

New member
If I offended you in any way and you were really offended and I came and I asked you to forgive me, would that make it all OK with you? Would you forget what I did even though I asked your forgiveness and you supposedly forgave me? You might say yes, however, I have people who still after I have asked forgiveness and have been given the supposedly forgiveness, still once in a while, reminds me....'do you remember when you did such and such?' Would you say that was real forgiveness. God doesn't. He says that when we ask Him for forgiveness He places that sin into the sea of forgetfulness.

Now, how can God place my sin in the sea of forgetfulness if He has not made a way for Him to do so? Well, He did ---- it is ---- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

I do take responsibility for my sins, I humble myself to God and ask Him to work in my life and perfect me as He is perfect; and that can only happens by me being in Him and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

It humbles me to no end that HE DECIDED that HE would do something so that I could get to Him.



Because that is what He DECIDED since BEFORE the foundation of the world and I am not He, 'cause if I were He, even I would not exist anymore. The God I serve is an awesome God. He did everything; making for me the way to get to Him.



God decided that the only thing He will ACCEPT is what comes from Him. Nothing that I DO means absolutely anything to Him so that I can get to Him. Only Him and what He did at the Cross of Calvary will He accept; therefore, because I think too much of myself, as you put it, I accept His judgment on my live, which is DEATH, but what an awesome God I serve that He deemed that He did not want to destroy me and gave me the opportunity to be part of His family.

Praise God I do not have to die anymore! God will accept me as His own because of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary and that is a incredible thought to ponder.

Why do you suppose God destroyed all but 8 souls in the days of Noah? Why did God go before Israel and defeat their enemies? Why did God change His mind after 3500 years (from Adam to Jesus) and decide that since people wouldn't follow Him as God that He would present Himself as His own son and kill himself instead? It does not make sense in any way. Do you think you can explain it? Give it your best shot, why did the God of the OT destroy His enemies and the God of the NT kill Himself?
 

unknown

New member
The Gnostics did not believe that Jesus came in the flesh.
Not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that they did not believe in a physical Jesus, that it was all a metaphor for something else?

They always say "The living Jesus", what do you think they mean by that?

I'm not disagreeing, I just hadn't heard that before.
 
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