The Gospel Of Thomas

[freelight]

Docetism.....

Docetism.....

The Gnostics did not believe that Jesus came in the flesh.

You're referring to 'Docetism'.

Not all gnostics were necessarily docetists, although the concept is consonant on some levels within Gnostic philosophy in general with its emphasis on the material realm being more or less 'impure' and the spiritual being the 'divine/heavenly'.

~*~*~

Were all the various systems of Gnosticism Docetist?

Docetae

~*~*~

We might also note that Paul's encounter with Jesus could be described as 'docetic' in a sense, since he experienced 'Christ' as a 'vision', 'light' and 'voice', - it was a purely spiritual encounter. This is further reflected in his concept of Jesus as more of a cosmic-redeemer figure, a spiritual 'Christ' that can indwell believers, contextualized within a 'mystery' unfolding in time and as a transformative process all believers partake in, as being "in Christ". None of the original apostles of Jesus taught this concept (as Paul did), which is more Hellenistic/gnostic/pagan in its descriptions.



pj

 

[freelight]

Repentance...............

Repentance...............

You make me wonder what it is that you have done that is so horrible you don't feel you can take responsibility for it. Why do you feel God had to die or have His son crucified in order to fix your transgression? I really don't think you've done anything that God had to die to fix. You think too much of yourself.

One is responsible for his own sins, and his own salvation. This is a basic universal law, that of 'self-responsibility'. A more advanced or purified being serving as a 'mediator' can absolve or alleviate karma to a degree for others, as in Jesus giving his life(soul) as an offering of LOVE to the world, but each soul STILL must make reparation or 'atonement' for his own sins, according to the law of karma and self-responsibility. This is proved in Jesus and his original apostles teaching that one must REPENT and believe in the kingdom, to enter into that realm of freedom. 'Repentance' is essential.

Granted various modes and models of 'atonement' are conceptualized within a given 'theology', it is merely conceptual and figurative, since even if a religionist accepts an 'atonement concept',...he still must atone for his own sins by REPENTING.


pj

 

[unknown]

One is responsible for his own sins, and his own salvation. This is a basic universal law, that of 'self-responsibility'. A more advanced or purified being serving as a 'mediator' can absolve or alleviate karma to a degree for others, as in Jesus giving his life(soul) as an offering of LOVE to the world, but each soul STILL must make reparation or 'atonement' for his own sins, according to the law of karma and self-responsibility. This is proved in Jesus and his original apostles teaching that one must REPENT and believe in the kingdom, to enter into that realm of freedom. 'Repentance' is essential.

Granted various modes and models of 'atonement' are conceptualized within a given 'theology', it is merely conceptual and figurative, since even if a religionist accepts an 'atonement concept',...he still must atone for his own sins by REPENTING.


pj

I agree with what you say. I am giving the Christians an opportunity to shut me up for good. If one of them can answer my question (from the bible) about why God changed His policy after 3500 years, I will never ask another Christian that question again. Seems like they would be all over it but I'm pretty sure the Bible says nothing about the matter. If it does, I may have to repent.

 

[lifeisgood]

Why do you suppose God destroyed all but 8 souls in the days of Noah? Why did God go before Israel and defeat their enemies? Why did God change His mind after 3500 years (from Adam to Jesus) and decide that since people wouldn't follow Him as God that He would present Himself as His own son and kill himself instead? It does not make sense in any way. Do you think you can explain it? Give it your best shot, why did the God of the OT destroy His enemies and the God of the NT kill Himself?

Because HE DECIDED that that is what it has to be.

You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

I, lifeisgood, have decided a long time ago to stop fighting with God and it has been the best decision I have ever made. Do I ask Him questions? Absolutely! Do I get the answers exactly the way I, lifeisgood, want. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do I fight with Him and tell Him how I, lifeisgood, think it would have been better? No! Why? Because when I look at some of the things I have asked Him in the past I am so thankful He did not give me what I wanted, and HIS ANSWERS have ALWAYS been EXACTLY what I, lifeisgood, needed and so much better than what I, lifeisgood, wanted.

It humbles me to no end to see His love toward a sinner such as me.

 

[unknown]

Because HE DECIDED that that is what it has to be.

You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

I, lifeisgood, have decided a long time ago to stop fighting with God and it has been the best decision I have ever made. Do I ask Him questions? Absolutely! Do I get the answers exactly the way I, lifeisgood, want. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do I fight with Him and tell Him how I, lifeisgood, think it would have been better? No! Why? Because when I look at some of the things I have asked Him in the past I am so thankful He did not give me what I wanted, and HIS ANSWERS have ALWAYS been EXACTLY what I, lifeisgood, needed and so much better than what I, lifeisgood, wanted.

It humbles me to no end to see His love toward a sinner such as me.

It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to give a biblical answer to my question. There is no explanation in the bible for my question. It doesn't exist other than Paul said the law was changed so the priesthood is changed. Paul gave no reason either.

I don't say what God is, my username is unknown because nobody knows what The Creator is. I'm pretty sure it's not what you say it is, you don't even have one verse to refute me with. I get the impression you have never read the whole bible. How did God go from omnipotent in the OT to a servant of sinners in the NT? I guess I shouldn't ask, you obviously don't have a clue.

Attack me personally all you want, it says loud and clear that you don't have an answer.

 

[freelight]

Because HE DECIDED that that is what it has to be.

How do you know any 'God' actually decided that is what it has to be, granted it appears to be just a vague notion or 'belief' generalized towards some particular, which is still a bit hazy.

You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

I, lifeisgood, have decided a long time ago to stop fighting with God and it has been the best decision I have ever made. Do I ask Him questions? Absolutely! Do I get the answers exactly the way I, lifeisgood, want. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do I fight with Him and tell Him how I, lifeisgood, think it would have been better? No! Why? Because when I look at some of the things I have asked Him in the past I am so thankful He did not give me what I wanted, and HIS ANSWERS have ALWAYS been EXACTLY what I, lifeisgood, needed and so much better than what I, lifeisgood, wanted.

It humbles me to no end to see His love toward a sinner such as me.

See above. Also note previous posts addressing our dialogue so far



pj

 

[JosephR]

The Gospel Of Thomas

I think all forms of Jesus serve a purpose , the knowledge and the attonment, Jesus told us to keep seeking, I feel that's what unknown has done in his life, I feel like lifeisgood has found peace in the atonement that cost God his Son,, you try to figure out cost awareness with God and figure out what's important, what did creation cost God? 6. Days, what did atonement cost Him? His begotten Son.. Sinks in and says much...

So I think we all respect the Creator and Jesus very much,just some keep seeking and some find peace...I respect and honestly revere both of you, I thirst for knowledge and peace

Preach the Gospel to those that are lost lifeisgood that they may inherit the Kingdom of God.
Unknown keep seeking and sharing, and you too are a Shepard for those obeying the command to keep seeking.

I can't leave FreeLight out guy is a walking dictionary for any spiritual direction you wana go, I feel truly blessed to have so many gifted people to talk with.


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[unknown]

"Mind Games"

We're playing those mind games together
Pushing the barriers planting seeds
Playing the mind guerrilla
Chanting the Mantra peace on earth
We all been playing those mind games forever
Some kinda druid dudes lifting the veil
Doing the mind guerrilla
Some call it magic the search for the grail

Love is the answer and you know that for sure
Love is a flower you got to let it grow

So keep on playing those mind games together
Faith in the future out of the now
You just can't beat on those mind guerrillas
Absolute elsewhere in the stones of your mind
Yeah we're playing those mind games together
Projecting our images in space and in time

Yes is the answer and you know that for sure
Yes is surrender you got to let it go

So keep on playing those mind games together
Doing the ritual dance in the sun
Millions of mind guerrillas
Putting their soul power to the karmic wheel
Keep on playing those mind games together
Raising the spirit of peace and love
(I want you to make love, not war
I know you've heard it before)

~John Lennon

 

[lifeisgood]

It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to give a biblical answer to my question. There is no explanation in the bible for my question. It doesn't exist other than Paul said the law was changed so the priesthood is changed. Paul gave no reason either.

I probably do not understand the question, the way you understand it. I apologize not being able to answer it the way you need it to be answered.

I don't say what God is, my username is unknown because nobody knows what The Creator is. I'm pretty sure it's not what you say it is, you don't even have one verse to refute me with. I get the impression you have never read the whole bible. How did God go from omnipotent in the OT to a servant of sinners in the NT? I guess I shouldn't ask, you obviously don't have a clue.

The God of the OT never stopped being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. I have no verse in my Bible that says that the God of the OT has lost any of his attributes.

The God of the OT in His omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience decided to manifest Himself in the flesh in the Person of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I would be a totally ignoramus person if I said I understand God completely. God is incomprehensible. However, He is not unknowable. (Jeremiah 9:23, 24; Daniel 11:32; John 17:3; Galatians 4:8-9; 1 John 4:4-8; 5:18-21) Can we understand enough to have a relationship with Him? I think yes. Can we comprehend Him completely? I think not.

We can only go so far and no further in our understanding of God because we are limited in three ways:

- First, we are limited by the finite capacity of our minds.
- Second, we are also limited by the sinfulness of our minds. Sin and Satan have darkened and blinded our minds lest we see the Truth (Romans 1:28; 2 Corinthians 4:4). Only God’s wondrous grace can overcome our moral aversion to truth and righteousness.
- Third, we are limited by revelation. Paul warned the Corinthians “not to go beyond what is written” because it would lead to arrogance (1 Corinthians 4:6).

There does not exist one person in the whole world that says that they comprehend God totally and completely — do not be deceived — for if a person understood God totally and completely, God would stop being God. However, God is knowable if we want to know Him personally.

So, one more time, I apologize to you, unknown, that I will never — and no one else for that matter — be able to give you the answer to your satisfaction as no one can.

Attack me personally all you want, it says loud and clear that you don't have an answer.

I have not attacked you personally.

 

[lifeisgood]

How do you know any 'God' actually decided that is what it has to be, granted it appears to be just a vague notion or 'belief' generalized towards some particular, which is still a bit hazy.

I read a book a long time ago "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek that answered an awful lot of questions for me.

 

[unknown]

I have not attacked you personally.

You lying devil....whatever...

You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

 

[freelight]

The 'Demiurge' within Gnostic cosmology......

The 'Demiurge' within Gnostic cosmology......

Disclaimer.

I was listening to a lecture yesterday and was reminded about a Gnostic belief that I am not in agreement with.

The idea Gnostics have about the demiruge is disagreeable to me. They use that teaching to explain why there is suffering in the world. This is a problem because if they do not know the reason for suffering they can't learn from it.

Funny thing is I remember you bringing up this subject and I tried to 'search thread' for it, and noticed you wrote 'demiurge' wrong, so when I put it in the search box....it couldn't find it - anyways,...now that I manually discovered it...we can touch on a few points here, since the 'demiurge' is a wonderful subject, which can relate metaphorically on other levels as well.

I'll be reviving this thread here (That the Creator of this world is the True God - Against Gnosticism) where we expound more on the 'demiurge'.

There is nothing taught expressly about a demiurge in the GOT itself, but being a collection of sayings, it is less likely to contain a whole cosmology like other gnostic texts that went into greater detail.



pj

 

[lifeisgood]

You lying devil....whatever...

Thank you.

This:
Originally Posted by lifeisgood:
You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

is not attacking you personally. It is a statement of fact from what I understand from the conversation going on in this thread. I am sorry if it hurt. You are searching things; therefore, right now you are in one level, when you find the answer you're looking for you will be in another level and other questions will pop up. No personal attacks intended. I am responsible for what I say. You are responsible for what you understand. And that goes both ways.

 

[unknown]

Thank you.

This:
Originally Posted by lifeisgood:
You, unknown, are trying to read the mind of God, and in a sense, you want to be God. You, unknown, know better than God; therefore, you know best what has to be and how dare God not do things the way I, unknown, have decided it is best.

is not attacking you personally. It is a statement of fact from what I understand from the conversation going on in this thread. I am sorry if it hurt. You are searching things; therefore, right now you are in one level, when you find the answer you're looking for you will be in another level and other questions will pop up. No personal attacks intended. I am responsible for what I say. You are responsible for what you understand. And that goes both ways.

Build all the straw men you want.

Part of my Christian testimony was published in the April 9th, 2000 edition of USA Weekend and Tulsa World. it was read by hundreds of millions of people in this country. Where can I read your testimony of what God has done in your life?

I am no longer Christian because of thousands of fundamentalist believers who are trusting in Jesus to save them instead of getting off their butts and doing what Jesus said to do. Suit yourself, Christian, you can believe and wait for something to happen or you can get involved and watch God at work. I prefer the later.

 

[noguru]

Build all the straw men you want.

Part of my Christian testimony was published in the April 9th, 2000 edition of USA Weekend and Tulsa World. it was read by hundreds of millions of people in this country. Where can I read your testimony of what God has done in your life?

I am no longer Christian because of thousands of fundamentalist believers who are trusting in Jesus to save them instead of getting off their butts and doing what Jesus said to do. Suit yourself, Christian, you can believe and wait for something to happen or you can get involved and watch God at work. I prefer the later.

I will not renounce the title "Christian" simply because some people fallaciously use it as a label to compensate for their own laziness and/or cowardice.

Why must I always explain

Always telling people things they are too lazy to know.

 

[unknown]

I will not renounce the title "Christian" simply because some people fallaciously use it as a label to compensate for their own laziness and/or cowardice.

Why must I always explain

Thanks for the tune.....first time I'd heard it.....and the next line.....

It can make you crazy. It can drive you insane. ~Van Morrison

I am no longer a respecter of labels. People in real life are sometimes surprised to hear me say I am not Christian. They say I have Christian values, until I explain the difference. I do not believe it is possible that anyone can die for the sins of another. So I think if I reject the core belief of the religion, I have no right to the label anyway.

I'm sure you know this but for those who don't I will say that we are only blessed to be a blessing to others. There is great Joy in being a blessing to others and I have become rather selfish about it. Doing what Jesus taught is life in abundance. I find very little joy in mere belief these days.

Jesus chose His disciples, taught them and then sent them out. Why do Christians not know that they should have been sent out? Simply put, it is their belief that Jesus took care of everything for them that is the cause of their inaction and the reason they need constant explanation.

 

[noguru]

Thanks for the tune.....first time I'd heard it.....and the next line.....

I am no longer a respecter of labels. People in real life are sometimes surprised to hear me say I am not Christian. They say I have Christian values, until I explain the difference. I do not believe it is possible that anyone can die for the sins of another. So I think if I reject the core belief of the religion, I have no right to the label anyway.

I'm sure you know this but for those who don't I will say that we are only blessed to be a blessing to others. There is great Joy in being a blessing to others and I have become rather selfish about it. Doing what Jesus taught is life in abundance. I find very little joy in mere belief these days.

Jesus chose His disciples, taught them and then sent them out. Why do Christians not know that they should have been sent out? Simply put, it is their belief that Jesus took care of everything for them that is the cause of their inaction and the reason they need constant explanation.

As much as I respect your opinions and perspective, I believe you are throwing out the baby (in black) with the bathwater (in red) here. For many people forgiving themselves and others is such a monumental task that they need divine guidance for that. In order to sincerely bring genuine abundance to one's self and others, I am certain that forgiveness is a prerequisite. I have learned how to determine the people who are sincere in their forgiveness of themselves and others and bring genuine abundance.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.…

 

[unknown]

As much as I respect your opinions and perspective, I believe you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. For many people forgiving themselves and others is such a monumental task that they need divine guidance for that. And in order to sincerely bring genuine abundance to one's self and others, I am certain that forgiveness is a prerequisite.

Repentance of sins and forgiveness of others are both prerequisite. God doesn't have to die to forgive sin, it's in the OT; it's the same thing Jesus taught. Paul was the one who wanted a new law and a new priesthood.

Paul was a Roman enforcer. If not, then what was his authority to kill Christians in Damascus? Gamaliel had no such authority, the high priest had no such authority and the entire Sanhedrin had no such authority . Paul claims two sides of the fence, the Pharisee (Gamaliel) and the Sadducee (High Priest), while he was actually a Roman.

 

[unknown]

As much as I respect your opinions and perspective, I believe you are throwing out the baby (in black) with the bathwater (in red) here. For many people forgiving themselves and others is such a monumental task that they need divine guidance for that. And in order to sincerely bring genuine abundance to one's self and others, I am certain that forgiveness is a prerequisite.

I see you edited your post.....

Yes nobody can do this thing called love for others by themselves. It must come from understanding real spiritual principles. We must want to do it and we must want it more than everything else. God will do the rest. IOW, be a man after God's own heart.

Teachings against "works" is detrimental to ones spiritual progress, in my estimation.

 

[noguru]

Repentance of sins and forgiveness of others are both prerequisite. God doesn't have to die to forgive sin, it's in the OT; it's the same thing Jesus taught. Paul was the one who wanted a new law and a new priesthood.

Paul was a Roman enforcer. If not, then what was his authority to kill Christians in Damascus? Gamaliel had no such authority, the high priest had no such authority and the entire Sanhedrin had no such authority . Paul claims two sides of the fence, the Pharisee (Gamaliel) and the Sadducee (High Priest), while he was actually a Roman.

Jesus serves as the example for those who find forgiveness too monumental of a task for their own capabilities, because they have trapped themselves "in the world". Of course there are many who refuse to acknowledge this reality.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.