The Gospel Of Thomas

[thatlldopig]

Paul quoted the translation errors from the LXX, he didn't use Hebrew at all. He was never a student of Gamaliel, we see it because of his quotation of error from the LXX. No student of Gamaliel would do such a thing. His logic is not the logic of a Pharisee either.

Hmm... no student of Gamaliel would use the text his Greek students are reading? That is a rather wild conclusion.

 

[unknown]

Hmm... no student of Gamaliel would use the text his Greek students are reading? That is a rather wild conclusion.

Gamaliel was a Pharisee, he was against Hellenization. What makes you think he would teach the meaning of a Hebrew text in Greek? Why are you showing us Hebrew? Why don't you do it in Greek? Because it doesn't work in Greek, that's why.

 

[Eeset]

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

 

[thatlldopig]

I teach about Hebrew in English the same way the apostles taught about Hebrew in Greek. People who read my stuff aren't going to move right over to a Hebrew text, any more than the Greeks who were being taught were going to pick up a Hebrew text.

Never heard of him. Who else teaches this besides Ginsburgh?

I learned it directly from my Grandpa and Rabbi Foreman, rest their souls. Ginsburgh is easier to research. Google Mispar Katan Mispari and send me an apology.

Let's see. You are an expert in Jewish mystery but have never heard of Ginsburgh... and the first four pages returned when you google 'Harav Ginsburgh' are links to stuff about him. Isn't that a tad lazy? I think I am not interested in playing whatever game it is you have going. I have much better things to do. Ciao.

For others: Ginsburgh is a Kabballist. I do not endorse Kabbalah. But it represents the 'hidden wisdom' of the Judaism which rejected Christ. It has some things in common with the 'dark sayings/riddles' of the apostles (Jews who accepted Christ). Kabbalism leads away from Christ and actually makes threats against those who would see Christ in the OT. The apostles led toward Christ.

To learn Kabbalah properly, traditionally one has had to be 40 years old, married with children, and a faithful member of the synagogue before one could begin.

 

[unknown]

I teach about Hebrew in English the same way the apostles taught about Hebrew in Greek. People who read my stuff aren't going to move right over to a Hebrew text, any more than the Greeks who were being taught were going to pick up a Hebrew text.


I learned it directly from my Grandpa and Rabbi Foreman, rest their souls. Ginsburgh is easier to research. Google Mispar Katan Mispari and send me an apology.

Let's see. You are an expert in Jewish mystery but have never heard of Ginsburgh... and the first four pages returned when you google 'Harav Ginsburgh' are links to stuff about him. Isn't that a tad lazy? I think I am not interested in playing whatever game it is you have going. I have much better things to do. Ciao.

For others: Ginsburgh is a Kabballist. I do not endorse Kabbalah. But it represents the 'hidden wisdom' of the Judaism which rejected Christ. It has some things in common with the 'dark sayings/riddles' of the apostles (Jews who accepted Christ). Kabbalism leads away from Christ and actually makes threats against those who would see Christ in the OT. The apostles led toward Christ.

To learn Kabbalah properly, traditionally one has had to be 40 years old, married with children, and a faithful member of the synagogue before one could begin.

It's 2014 on my calendar. Kabbalah is being taught in grade school now and it has nothing to do with Ginsbergh.
http://www.kabbalahbooks.info/SearchResults.asp?Search=children&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

But since you have taken the time to learn something, please explain to me how the number 5 relates to The Creator and Nature according to your version of Gematria.

What makes you think I am an expert in anything? I didn't make that claim.

Have a nice day.

 

[unknown]

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

:jawdrop:


:idunno:



opcorn:

 

[noguru]

No problem TH. I mistook you for a goosedneck marobe or meshak or spongebob type. Is it any wonder I'm trigger happy? They've kinda ruined TOL for me. Tambora was buggin me yesterday over a Bob Dylan quote. sheeesh.

Now that I know your intent, talk about whatever you like. (as if my permission mattered around here)

Tambora or Bob Dylan. I think I will take Bob Dylan in regards to having a grasp on wisdom. I don't pay much attention to Tambora's mindless whining. And my slogan/motto is from a Bob Dylan song.

 

[noguru]

We can intellectualize these matters in many directions. Many metaphors, analogies, etc. are possible. If we look at the work of Ned Hermann and the development of the HBDI (Hermann Brain Dominance Instrument), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrmann_Brain_Dominance_Instrument , we see that humans communicate and comprehend with one side or other of the brain. I won't try to explain it but if it is true, we need more than one expression of the thought so that it becomes accessible to every mind. We are a collective soul but have no sense of it. The field in which we exist takes care of all this, every need is filled. We can see it or deny it but the reason for suffering is to turn us in the right direction. It's all good.

Well said.

 

[unknown]

Tambora or Bob Dylan. I think I will take Bob Dylan in regards to having a grasp on wisdom. I don't pay much attention to Tambora's mindless whining. And my slogan/motto is from a Bob Dylan song.

Bob Dylan's comments on the song Blowin' In The Wind from 1962

There ain’t too much I can say about this song except that the answer is blowing in the wind. It ain’t in no book or movie or TV show or discussion group. Man, it’s in the wind – and it’s blowing in the wind. Too many of these hip people are telling me where the answer is but oh I won’t believe that. I still say it’s in the wind and just like a restless piece of paper it’s got to come down some ...But the only trouble is that no one picks up the answer when it comes down so not too many people get to see and know . . . and then it flies away. I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it’s wrong. I’m only 21 years old and I know that there’s been too many . . . You people over 21, you’re older and smarter.

 

[unknown]

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

It just hit me. I think it's speaks against religion/church. As in the whore of Babylon.

maybe?

 

[bybee]

It just hit me. I think it's speaks against religion/church. As in the whore of Babylon.

maybe?

The idea/concept of "church" during the time of Jesus was nothing like the idea today. There were synagogues and there were pagan temples, no "Christian" churches existed.

 

[unknown]

The idea/concept of "church" during the time of Jesus was nothing like the idea today. There were synagogues and there were pagan temples, no "Christian" churches existed.

You are correct, there were no Christian churches. They were Gnostic, Essene, Nazarene, Coptic, Taoist, Buddhist; things like that. By the time the Catholic religion became the religion of Rome many ties were broken.

 

[unknown]

I have much better things to do. Ciao.

Translation: bedepbedepbedep....that's all folks!

 

[jeremysdemo]

It just hit me. I think it's speaks against religion/church. As in the whore of Babylon.

maybe?

surely a lost idiom.

that why so many people cannot accept the Gospel of Thomas.

they haven't taken the time to study the cannon text and culture, let alone other text from the era. :think:

 

[unknown]

surely a lost idiom.

that why so many people cannot accept the Gospel of Thomas.

they haven't taken the time to study the cannon text and culture, let alone other text from the era. :think:

Perhaps someone can inform us (I don't know) of any religion that held a belief in a Queen of Heaven at the time? The word "mother" is what caught my attention and makes me think this saying is about religion.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Perhaps someone can inform us (I don't know) of any religion that held a belief in a Queen of Heaven at the time? The word "mother" is what caught my attention and makes me think this saying is about religion.

there were many political regimes at the time that threatened the peace of Israel.

perhaps the answer can be found in Revelation:

Revelation 18:7
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

common in Post and pre-Great Revolt literature.

 

[freelight]

transcending human mis-conceptions.......

transcending human mis-conceptions.......

105. Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."

~*~*~

105. Yeshua says: Whoever shall acknowledge father and mother, shall be called the son of (a) harlot. - Brown

This is a complex saying since so many allusions can be drawn or indicated by the terms 'father', 'mother' and 'harlot'. In general it could allude to a misplaced attachment to one's biological parents instead of one abiding in the original knowledge of his true spiritual parent, who is 'God' alone. The twist here is as well is that one could acknowledge his true 'parents' (both biological and spiritual) and still be accused of slander or 'illegitimacy'. - one could cater to any 'interpretation' here in how the terms are defined, plus 'context' and 'application'.

Cross-ref:

101. (Yeshua says): Whoever does not hate his father and his mother in my way, shall not be able to become a Disciple to me. And whoever does [not] love his [Father] and his Mother in my way, shall not be able to become a [Disciple to] me. For my mother [bore° my body],¹ yet [my] True [Mother] gave me the life.

- Brown

The above beautifully expands upon Luke 14:26 putting it in perspective, for the 'loving' and 'hating' must be understood in relational-contrast in the context of 'affections'.

The key here is the 'priority' of the Spirit (material relationships are but a shadowy reflection of 'ideals' and spirit-realities). Jesus may also be referring to the controversy of his own 'parentage' and 'birth-history', the rumors of being a 'bastard', illegitmate, to say nothing of a 'virgin birth' (imposed later via tradition), for while honoring his physical parents according to the law, he honored more his spiritual Father and Mother (the Infinite Spirit).

He calls us to do likewise, for "you are all children of God and sons of the Most High".

Expanded commentary on saying 105.



pj

 

[freelight]

Truth be told.......

Truth be told.......

The early church rejected the gospel of Thomas out of hand.

That cannot be proved since early followers of Jesus may have been familiar with a collection of sayings that the GOT represents, among other sayings that we may not know of. The earliest mention of a gospel attributed to Thomas from any early church fathers is early 3rd century, so that even if the GOT is a later work (2nd-3rd century)...it may represent an earlier source-tradition of sayings, just like the hypothetical existence of "Q" is assumed for some of the synoptic gospels, but has never been found :sherlock:

John's gospel directly refutes many of gnostic doctrines contained as such.

As noted earlier, John has many redactions and is a hodge-podge of a more hellenstic greek-gnostic philosophy with many 'gnostic' elements, even though it appears some of its 'authors' tried to put in anti-gnostic sentiments to combat a growing tendency of Gnosticism among believers. I've always sensed the esoteric school of John was essentially 'gnostic' at heart, arrange the outer trimming or decoration anyway you want

Gnostic Enigmas in the Gospel of John

Its basic format and message is a different gospel to the one taught by the early church, and recorded in the rest of scripture.

Its just a collection of sayings (its not posing, neither was it written to be a gospel-story as the writers of the synoptics attempted to portray). As far as what was actually taught by the 'early church' would entail many books and theories (already hypothesized), since the original followers of Jesus were 'Jewish' thru and thru, except for some modifications and innovations from their Teacher Jesus, as we know from the records of the Jerusalem Community, led by the Lord's brother, James the Just.

Paul's gospel is another 'entity' in itself, his own innovation.

Junk is the polite word.

Since the GOT confirms, illumines and expands on various sayings found in the synoptics, and has a few wonderful sayings by itself as well,...I see no harm in recognizing such. Some sayings correlate to other sayings sources in other non-canonical works so reflect the ideologies and archetypal insights of that era so are helpful in formulating the 'bigger picture'.

In a field where little evidence exists for the historical 'Jesus' outside of the NT itself, as well as other scriptural-embellishments and scribal-doctoring (infuse some mythology in as well)...it would appear somewhat odd for anyone to have a disdain or aversion for a collection of 'wisdom-sayings' of Jesus unless they are impinged by dogma. It is what it is, and at least it 'exists', unlike "Q".

Furthermore in John it says we only have a smidgen of what Jesus said and did (though the writer was content that what he shared was sufficient), and we don't know how much of it is 'religious fiction' or what is a 'historical reality', since much is not 'attested' to in the synoptic gospels, but represent the writer of John's own theological slant (or the community that 'compiled' the gospel of John). I'd say the prospects here are more promising than 'junk', for only those who seek, may obtain the pearl of great price (the spiritual kingdom itself and its treasures).



pj

 

[JosephR]

Perhaps someone can inform us (I don't know) of any religion that held a belief in a Queen of Heaven at the time? The word "mother" is what caught my attention and makes me think this saying is about religion.

A Pagan Goddess of Venus, Astarte Daughter of Baal? But I am not that great with Pagan Gods and Goddesses

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
Jer 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?


El and YhWh were in great competition at this time.And I read many of the tribes of Israel were worshiping El the compassionate and not YhVh the jealous.

As far as who is the Queen of Heaven ,He is more then likely referring too the Pagan religion,And Goddess Ishtar or Astarte.

I have studied under the Temple of Astarte...

 

[JosephR]

On to 12,, this is the Logia that started this thread.

The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being”.