The Gospel Of Thomas

[Angel4Truth]

Its a metaphor for the sudden deliverance of Israel after the time of Jacobs trouble. The slow long waiting culminating in sudden sharp pains and then deliverance is the metaphor being used.

See:

Isaiah 66:7-9

7 “Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8 Who has ever heard of such things?
Who has ever seen things like this?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.

A couple commentaries on this :
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Jeremiah 30:6
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
6. Ask—Consult all the authorities, men or books, you can, you will not find an instance. Yet in that coming day men will be seen with their hands pressed on their loins, as women do to repress their pangs. God will drive men through pain to gestures more fitting a woman than a man (Jer 4:31; 6:24). The metaphor is often used to express the previous pain followed by the sudden deliverance of Israel, as in the case of a woman in childbirth (Isa 66:7-9).

paleness—properly the color of herbs blasted and fading: the green paleness of one in jaundice: the sickly paleness of terror.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and : Gills exposition of the bible

Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child?
&c.] Look into the histories of former times, inquire of those most versed in them, whether ever there was such a thing in the world as that a man should travail with child; ask one and, another you see in distress, whether that is their case or not, which looks so much like it; and since there never was such an instance, nor is it possible that there should: wherefore do I see every man with his hands his loins, as a woman in
travail;
the usual posture of women in such a condition, trying hereby to abate their pain, and ease themselves. This metaphor is made use of, both to express the sharpness and shortness of this distress; as the pains of a woman in travail are very sharp, yet short, and, when over, quickly forgotten; and so it wilt be at this time; it will be a sharp trial of the church and people of God; but it will last but for a short time; and the joy and happy times that will follow will soon cause it to be forgotten: and all faces are turned into paleness
at the departure of the blood, through fear and trembling. The Septuagint and Vulgate Latin versions render it "the yellow jaundice"; their faces were of the colour of such persons that have that disease upon them; or, as others, the green sickness.

 

[thatlldopig]

I have no argument with you Angel4truth. As I mentioned elsewhere (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3836023&postcount=4) I believe that the Bible has four layers, the same as the church has traditionally believed. It is a modern phenomenon to say that it has only one layer.

So the literal layer always means what the literal layer says. But Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him. So the question is how do we see him in all the scripture. This is what I hope to demonstrate by posting here.

Not everyone can see Jesus in the Old Testament.
Pr 25:2 ¶ [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

 

[JosephR]

As long as you have a quest for God Who shall stand in your way.?

King David as a child showed this with his sling...

 

[JosephR]

If I stand for YAWH... Who then can stand against us?

 

[Pnevma]

Again the language used by The Coptic Gnostics here is foreign to me. I'm sure freelight can explain it better from that view. When I say language I mean the particular words that were used in the teaching common to the group.

Kabbalists use the language of branches, meaning that the words of this world are the branch level (thus a literal understanding exists) and they describe the roots in the spiritual level. The word "light" heard in the ear of a Kabbalist means The Creator. Light is the word in this world that closet describes certain attributes. When we examine light (were getting to the quantum level btw) we see how it radiates in all directions; the creator is like that. We see what was hidden from us in the darkness becomes visible in the light. And so on; each word is a teaching in itself. Moses, Mt Sinai, Going to the top and the other words of that story all mean something very specific to the Kabbalist. Moses means "drawn out" (it is explained in the story what his name means). Mt Sinai means two things in the language of branches; because it is Mt it is a condition of our state of being; this applies to all "lands" spoken of such as Egypt being a state of bondage. Sinai means hatred. So those that are drawn out by The Creator are to rise above their state of hatred to receive wisdom from The Creator. This is not clear at the "branch" level of understanding because the carnal mind perceives that the text is speaking of this world; it is only using the language of this world to describe the spiritual world.

In Kabbalistc terms Heaven and Earth are places/lands, that means they are states of being. Heaven is bestowal and Earth is reception, As in; In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. Only one force moves all of creation; the thought of creation itself. To bestow. Every thing that exists is considered reception. As soon as God had the thought to bestow, a vessel came into to being to receive. In the beginning these two were connected directly together, they were as one. In order to fulfill the thought of creation they were purposefully separated. That is the Creator and the creature moved farther and farther apart in qualities. This is because the thought of creation, according to the Kabbalists, states that The Creator had a desire to create a creature and fill it with unbounded delight. "Unbounded" is so that the greatest delight is possible. Adam Hirishon (the first man) was separated from The Creator. His spiritual and physical genetics have been broken up into billions of pieces. Only one "soul" was created, only one soul exists. We are all part of the same soul. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said no one has ascended into heaven except he that came down from heaven, the son of man. He was speaking of ben Adam/son of man (all of us). This was the ladder that Jacob saw in a dream.

Hi Unknown, thanks, I enjoyed this.
Do you have any thoughts on the last part of the verse, “what will you do?”

 

[freelight]

lost years of Jesus......

lost years of Jesus......

The Disciples of Jesus had no first hand knowledge of his early years. Therefore whatever was written about his birth and childhood must have been secondhand knowledge of even more distant.

I think it a safe bet that few on this site believe the veracity of Levi H. Dowling.

I've quoted from The Aquarian Gospel by Levi H. Dowling before,...a wonderful work drawing from the Akashic Records. Other works that speak of Jesus lost years and various travels are 'The Unknown Life of Jesus the Christ' by Nicolas Notovich, as well as the Urantia Book.



pj

 

[freelight]

Baptized in the 'fire'........

Baptized in the 'fire'........

Jesus said, “I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am guarding it until it blazes”.


Compare and correspond to Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

This also corresponds with the Lord Jesus as the one who baptizes us in the Holy Spirit and fire. The Lord immerses us in his firery presence, a purifying and illumining radiance.



pj

 

[unknown]

duplicate post.... I'm getting a lot of "Database Errors" here this morning.

 

[unknown]

Hi Unknown, thanks, I enjoyed this.
Do you have any thoughts on the last part of the verse, “what will you do?”

Thank you, If one person got anything at all from that, I am very happy.

This is just a guess but I'll share. When we were one we became two but when when we are two we will become one again (at the end of our correction). One with the Creator just as Jesus was one with God. Just a guess.......

p.s. I like your slogan/motto

 

[thatlldopig]

Saying 16

16) Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary."

Though GOT is written in Greek and/or Coptic he is teaching how to solve Hebrew riddle.

As a riddle:

Dissention/betrayal is רמה remah which is identical to רמה cast down and רמה high place.

dissention which I have come to cast upon the earth

This is a word play (using two of the three puns to highlight the third) which says that the high place will be brought to earth. The kingdom of God will be on earth.

The next part plays with the hieroglyphic metaphors of the letters. The metaphor of each letter can be expressed many ways, such as the shin ש can be fire, the Holy Spirit, the word not returning void, etc. The aleph א represents the separation of the waters, division, etc.. depending on its position it can also mean reconciliation.

ש - fire
ו - sword
א - war

The word שוא which is spelled out by the letters representing fire, sword, and war, means desolation. So when the kingdom of God comes to earth, the earth will be destroyed. Many take the Biblical verses that are similar to this as literal, but there is an aspect that when one is ruled by the spirit, the flesh no longer has control. It is made desolate. One could say that Jesus came so that we could put off the old man and put on the new.

Then there are only two houses that have five letters in them: בית~שן Bethshan or house of ease and בית־אל Bethel or House of God. The context makes it Bethel. Three letters spelling (Beth) are against two (El), the house is against God, and God is against the house. It is said that we were at war with God, and then Christ took our sin upon himself and represented us as his 'house' or family. The time of the cross is when the Father left the Son and he cried out "Why have you forsaken me?"

And afterwards they 'stand up together' being reconciled.

---added

The reason that Thomas teaches this is because John uses the method in several places. A small example:
John uses Gematria and metaphor

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Heaven שמים has gematria of 3 (300 + 40 + 10 + 40 = 390 => 12 => 3)

Earth ארץ has gematria of 3 (1 + 200 + 90 = 291 => 12 => 3)

The gimel ג is the number 3. It's name is spelled גמל which has gematria of 1. (3 + 40 + 30 = 73 => 10 => 1) John says that these three are one.

John says there are three in heaven and three in earth. This is not just an accident. John further confirms it with the use of the metaphor of the letters:

In heaven (שמים) there is the ש Spirit, מ the Father and ם the Son. On earth (ארץ) there is the א water, the ר Word (revelation) and the ץ Blood.

 

[bybee]

Thank you, If one person got anything at all from that, I am very happy.

This is just a guess but I'll share. When we were two we became one but when when we are two we will become one again (at the end of our correction). One with the Creator just as Jesus was one with God. Just a guess.......

p.s. I like your slogan/motto

I think the creation of life required fellowship. It is not good to be alone. In marriage there is re-union in this life. Perhaps a parallel to spiritual union?

 

[unknown]

I think the creation of life required fellowship. It is not good to be alone. In marriage there is re-union in this life. Perhaps a parallel to spiritual union?

I hadn't thought of that but you may be right. Adam and Eve became one flesh in the garden, 600,000 Israelites became one people at Sinai and 120 disciples became one man on the day of Pentecost.

This is a difficult concept for many because they are not ready to give up that much of their own ego. That's the same reason people get divorced. They are two and not one.

Good insight, Bybee, thanks.

add: I would if I could but I can't give you any pos-rep right now.

 

[Pnevma]

Though GOT is written in Greek and/or Coptic he is teaching how to solve Hebrew riddle.

As a riddle:

Dissention/betrayal is רמה remah which is identical to רמה cast down and רמה high place.



This is a word play (using two of the three puns to highlight the third) which says that the high place will be brought to earth. The kingdom of God will be on earth.

The next part plays with the hieroglyphic metaphors of the letters. The metaphor of each letter can be expressed many ways, such as the shin ש can be fire, the Holy Spirit, the word not returning void, etc. The aleph א represents the separation of the waters, division, etc.. depending on its position it can also mean reconciliation.

ש - fire
ו - sword
א - war

The word שוא which is spelled out by the letters representing fire, sword, and war, means desolation. So when the kingdom of God comes to earth, the earth will be destroyed. Many take the Biblical verses that are similar to this as literal, but there is an aspect that when one is ruled by the spirit, the flesh no longer has control. It is made desolate. One could say that Jesus came so that we could put off the old man and put on the new.

Then there are only two houses that have five letters in them: בית~שן Bethshan or house of ease and בית־אל Bethel or House of God. The context makes it Bethel. Three letters spelling (Beth) are against two (El), the house is against God, and God is against the house. It is said that we were at war with God, and then Christ took our sin upon himself and represented us as his 'house' or family. The time of the cross is when the Father left the Son and he cried out "Why have you forsaken me?"

And afterwards they 'stand up together' being reconciled.

---added

The reason that Thomas teaches this is because John uses the method in several places. A small example:
John uses Gematria and metaphor

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Heaven שמים has gematria of 3 (300 + 40 + 10 + 40 = 390 => 12 => 3)

Earth ארץ has gematria of 3 (1 + 200 + 90 = 291 => 12 => 3)

The gimel ג is the number 3. It's name is spelled גמל which has gematria of 1. (3 + 40 + 30 = 73 => 10 => 1) John says that these three are one.

John says there are three in heaven and three in earth. This is not just an accident. John further confirms it with the use of the metaphor of the letters:

In heaven (שמים) there is the ש Spirit, מ the Father and ם the Son. On earth (ארץ) there is the א water, the ר Word (revelation) and the ץ Blood.

Well. You’re jumping about a bit now. . I prefer logical progression through the text, so I’ll just dip in as and when… :idunno:

 

[thatlldopig]

Well. You’re jumping about a bit now. . I prefer logical progression through the text, so I’ll just dip in as and when… :idunno:

Sorry, having come in late I had hoped to show that Thomas uses the genre of riddle, as instruction in using the methods of the NT authors. That is certainly a different discussion than attempting to read it literally and have everyone tell what they think it means. So I'll butt out and wait for a more appropriate discussion. I didn't mean to distract.

 

[unknown]

Heaven שמים has gematria of 3 (300 + 40 + 10 + 40 = 390 => 12 => 3)

Earth ארץ has gematria of 3 (1 + 200 + 90 = 291 => 12 => 3)

The gimel ג is the number 3. It's name is spelled גמל which has gematria of 1. (3 + 40 + 30 = 73 => 10 => 1) John says that these three are one.

This is not Gematria. why did you reduce the numbers down to a single digit?

It is nice to see someone understands that there is more going on here than simple words but this just ain't right.

The Hebrew word for God (Elohim) has a numerical value of 86 and so does the Hebrew word for nature (teva). Those digits (8 and 6) are not added to yield 14 and then reduced to 5. I think you do that to connect it to the days of creation (I think I read that somewhere). That's wrong.

The name Elohim is the highest name of The Creator in this world but in the higher worlds He has other names. In the highest world He is called Ein Sof (without end/infinity). His names are an indication of how much can be revealed about His qualities in each world. In this world His qualities are revealed in/as nature. It's a very good thing that we study science to see how things work. Everything people attribute to nature is called an "act of God" even by those with no spirituality at all and they are dead right.

To understand the qualities of The Creator in the highest world is to understand infinity.

The number 40 indicates understanding. the degree of understanding is stated in terms of either days, weeks, months or years. Jesus was said to be in the wilderness 40 days and the Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years. I find that strange, it makes me think the writers of the NT didn't understand the source of the teachings. If Jesus had appeared at 40 years of age, the text would be more in-line with the teachings and would indicate Jesus at the same level as Moses. It however instead puts the understanding of Jesus at a much lower level than Moses.

Paul didn't know these things and neither did the church he started.. They still don't understand or at least they don't tell anybody about what these things really mean.

 

[jeremysdemo]

oooh bible codes...

at edge of seat. opcorn:

 

[freelight]

The priority of the timeless.......

The priority of the timeless.......

(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

A most wonderful reflection of our 'origin' in 'God', for as the disciples ask about their 'end', Jesus takes them to the 'origin' of existence, which is timeless in essence. That realm independent of time, is also free of all the effects of time, which is 'birth' and 'death'.

John 8: 51 also says -

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Some believe parts of John's gospel appear to be a 'polemic' against gnostic teaching, however I see that gospel being quite 'gnostic' in certain respects, since it also emphasizes 'knowledge' of the 'Son of God' as being 'key' to having 'eternal life'. Parts of John are recognized as having undergone some 'redactions' as well, so any anti-gnostic sentiments might have been later 'tailored' into the text, to counter-act Gnosticism, however this depends on what aspects of gnostic theology we are considering, since besides essential key gnostic concepts, various schools exist.


At the end of the day, its the inherent value or meanings that can be gathered from the sayings of Jesus, after all the scholarly debates, estimations and probabilities have been examined. We can just as well access many non-canonical writings and modern day channeled info. from a personality or 'entity' called 'Jesus' and judge the messages by their quality and content.



pj

 

[unknown]

A most wonderful reflection of our 'origin' in 'God', for as the disciples ask about their 'end', Jesus takes them to the 'origin' of existence, which is timeless in essence. That realm independent of time, is also free of all the effects of time, which is 'birth' and 'death'.



Some believe parts of John's gospel appear to be a 'polemic' against gnostic teaching, however I see that gospel being quite 'gnostic' in certain respects, since it also emphasizes 'knowledge' of the 'Son of God' as being 'key' to having 'eternal life'. Parts of John are recognized as having undergone some 'redactions' as well, so any anti-gnostic sentiments might have been later 'tailored' into the text, to counter-act Gnosticism, however this depends on what aspects of gnostic theology we are considering, since besides essential key gnostic concepts, various schools exist.


At the end of the day, its the inherent value or meanings that can be gathered from the sayings of Jesus, after all the scholarly debates, estimations and probabilities have been examined. We can just as well access many non-canonical writings and modern day channeled info. from a personality or 'entity' called 'Jesus' and judge the messages by their quality and content.



pj

We can intellectualize these matters in many directions. Many metaphors, analogies, etc. are possible. If we look at the work of Ned Hermann and the development of the HBDI (Hermann Brain Dominance Instrument), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrmann_Brain_Dominance_Instrument , we see that humans communicate and comprehend with one side or other of the brain. I won't try to explain it but if it is true, we need more than one expression of the thought so that it becomes accessible to every mind. We are a collective soul but have no sense of it. The field in which we exist takes care of all this, every need is filled. We can see it or deny it but the reason for suffering is to turn us in the right direction. It's all good.

 

[thatlldopig]

This is not Gematria. why did you reduce the numbers down to a single digit?

There are four methods of Gematria. Harav Ginsburgh teaches the reduction.

The Hebrew word for God (Elohim) has a numerical value of 86 and so does the Hebrew word for nature (teva). Those digits (8 and 6) are not added to yield 14 and then reduced to 5. I think you do that to connect it to the days of creation (I think I read that somewhere). That's wrong.

I am sure you have read a lot of wrong stuff. ;-)

The number 40 indicates understanding. the degree of understanding is stated in terms of either days, weeks, months or years. Jesus was said to be in the wilderness 40 days and the Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years. I find that strange, it makes me think the writers of the NT didn't understand the source of the teachings. If Jesus had appeared at 40 years of age, the text would be more in-line with the teachings and would indicate Jesus at the same level as Moses. It however instead puts the understanding of Jesus at a much lower level than Moses.

Actually 40 is the four-fold word (prophet, priest, king, judge) of the dual-natured man. But one may believe what they wish.

Paul didn't know these things and neither did the church he started.. They still don't understand or at least they don't tell anybody about what these things really mean.

Maybe someone isn't listening.

Jesus was named Yeshua. NOT EMMANUEL. The prophecy was not fulfilled in his literal name, but in riddle.

Yah shuach, a pun, means 'God humbled' speaking of his incarnation and kenosis.

It is also Yahweh with a 'sh' in the middle. The 'sh' represents a marriage, God's word returning 'not void'. His name means God with a marriage in his heart. Both riddles point to 'God with us'. But Yeshua literally means 'God's salvation'.

Matthew then uses the same punning riddle to say that it was prophesied that he would be called a Nazarene. The law of the Nazarite is a prophecy of Christ. He is trying to tell those who can hear how to read the 'dark sayings' of the scriptures. I am happy to share them since they are no more than the 'mystery' which was revealed in Christ.

Paul mentions the mystery more than the other writers, and when he taught the Bereans, they had to search the scriptures to validate what he said. He certainly did understand them.

The trinitarian doctrine starts with calling God father. Ab - father has gematria of three, and Harav Ginsburgh also says that God has a triune nature. Paul calls the church the bride of Christ which is a doctrine hidden in the mystery of the OT.

The word amar means 'said'. God said (amar) "Let there be light". It also means 'lamb'. When God created the Light, and all else, he did it by the Lamb. The Lamb of God is the creator. How can we feign ignorance that the apostles knew this?

...and someone else mentioned Bible codes... I don't do that. I use a first century hermeneutic that is still taught by Orthodox Jews, but I apply it to the Old and New together. The rabbi can't solve the riddles he sees because he refuses to look at Christ.

 

[unknown]

There are four methods of Gematria. Harav Ginsburgh teaches the reduction.

Never heard of him. Who else teaches this besides Ginsburgh?

I am sure you have read a lot of wrong stuff. ;-)

you just blew up another irony meter.

Actually 40 is the four-fold word (prophet, priest, king, judge) of the dual-natured man. But one may believe what they wish.

And where would a prophet, priest, king, or judge be without understanding? Hmmm?

Maybe someone isn't listening.

Jesus was named Yeshua. NOT EMMANUEL. The prophecy was not fulfilled in his literal name, but in riddle.

Yah shuach, a pun, means 'God humbled' speaking of his incarnation and kenosis.

It is also Yahweh with a 'sh' in the middle. The 'sh' represents a marriage, God's word returning 'not void'. His name means God with a marriage in his heart. Both riddles point to 'God with us'. But Yeshua literally means 'God's salvation'.

Matthew then uses the same punning riddle to say that it was prophesied that he would be called a Nazarene. The law of the Nazarite is a prophecy of Christ. He is trying to tell those who can hear how to read the 'dark sayings' of the scriptures. I am happy to share them since they are no more than the 'mystery' which was revealed in Christ.

Paul mentions the mystery more than the other writers, and when he taught the Bereans, they had to search the scriptures to validate what he said. He certainly did understand them.

The trinitarian doctrine starts with calling God father. Ab - father has gematria of three, and Harav Ginsburgh also says that God has a triune nature. Paul calls the church the bride of Christ which is a doctrine hidden in the mystery of the OT.

The word amar means 'said'. God said (amar) "Let there be light". It also means 'lamb'. When God created the Light, and all else, he did it by the Lamb. The Lamb of God is the creator. How can we feign ignorance that the apostles knew this?

...and someone else mentioned Bible codes... I don't do that. I use a first century hermeneutic that is still taught by Orthodox Jews, but I apply it to the Old and New together. The rabbi can't solve the riddles he sees because he refuses to look at Christ.

Paul quoted the translation errors from the LXX, he didn't use Hebrew at all. He was never a student of Gamaliel, we see it because of his quotation of error from the LXX. No student of Gamaliel would do such a thing. His logic is not the logic of a Pharisee either.