The Gospel Of Thomas

[Eeset]

Would you agree with my basic argument that the writers of the canonical Gospels had closer access to eye witness sources for such infancy narratives than the later gnostic gospels?

No for the simple reason that you do not know who wrote any of those works nor the dates they were first written.

 

[Lion IRC]

No for the simple reason that you do not know who wrote any of those works nor the dates they were first written.

Even if I DIDNT know the precise dates or the actual names the reasoning would still apply.

 

[Eeset]

Even if I DIDNT know the precise dates or the actual names the reasoning would still apply.

I would suppose that the Gospel of Mary was written prior to Luke and by someone much closer to Mary mother of Jesus. But you probably disagree.

 

[unknown]

Here is 8. It is in the other gospels as well and I compared.. some gospels say there are good fish and bad this one is different as in small fish and big.Anyone familiar with the 4 gospels of the Bible should be able to get the comparassion right away.


And he said, “The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear”.

This also echos the statement found in the 4, I will make you fishers of Men.

The analogy of men and fish was written about by Gamaliel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

Since the Hillel school of thought is presented collectively, there are very few other teachings which are clearly identifiable as Gamaliel's. There is only a somewhat cryptic dictum, comparing his students to classes of fish:

A ritually impure fish: one who has memorised everything by study, but has no understanding, and is the son of poor parents

A ritually pure fish: one who has learnt and understood everything, and is the son of rich parents

A fish from the Jordan River: one who has learnt everything, but doesn't know how to respond

A fish from the Mediterranean: one who has learnt everything, and knows how to respond

There was more to it than just fishing. There was also the matter of what one is fishing for.


So that puts this saying in a somewhat different light for me than the way I used to think about "fishers of men". It also shines a different light on the time Jesus sent Peter to the Jordan to catch a fish to pay their taxes.


According to Gamaliel, I would think the biggest fish is the one from the Mediterranean. But this saying also speaks to me of conservation of the creation.

 

[unknown]

I wish ImJerusa was here she can explain this part very well.

That would be nice. I didn't get to deep into this subject in Kabbalah (that's the source for this) because their is nothing that can be done with the knowledge except to use it like a road map to see where one is in spirituality. There is nothing we can do there, The Creator moves us through spirituality every step of the way. It is nice to know that one is actually in spirituality though and we have a means to confirm that we are there.

BTW I am not Jewish but I do remember and observe the Sabbath.
Out of respect for the Creator and His creation,IE Earth,Me and You and to partake of the yellow text above.

I try keep the Sabbath it is very good when one can. My understanding from Kabbalah is that these "days" are not the physical calendar days but spiritual days. A phase in development.

It is said that the entire creation is lifted up to heaven on the Sabbath. This does not mean that earth is moved from it's orbit but that after 6 spiritual days of development (that could take years btw) we should rest and be blessed. There are three blessings associated with Sabbath. These "blessings" come in the form of enlightenment from above. This is one of the things I discovered before I studied Kabbalah. I always enjoy the Sabbath.

Sorry I didn't make it back last night. I was already tired when I went out to gather pecans and right after dinner I was out like a light. I have to go to Tulsa today so will probably not be available here most of the day. I'll check back later his evening. Nobody has to wait for me, I'll catch up with the rest as I am able.

 

[bybee]

That would be nice. I didn't get to deep into this subject in Kabbalah (that's the source for this) because their is nothing that can be done with the knowledge except to use it like a road map to see where one is in spirituality. There is nothing we can do there, The Creator moves us through spirituality every step of the way. It is nice to know that one is actually in spirituality though and we have a means to confirm that we are there.


I try keep the Sabbath it is very good when one can. My understanding from Kabbalah is that these "days" are not the physical calendar days but spiritual days. A phase in development.

It is said that the entire creation is lifted up to heaven on the Sabbath. This does not mean that earth is moved from it's orbit but that after 6 spiritual days of development (that could take years btw) we should rest and be blessed. There are three blessings associated with Sabbath. These "blessings" come in the form of enlightenment from above. This is one of the things I discovered before I studied Kabbalah. I always enjoy the Sabbath.

Sorry I didn't make it back last night. I was already tired when I went out to gather pecans and right after dinner I was out like a light. I have to go to Tulsa today so will probably not be available here most of the day. I'll check back later his evening. Nobody has to wait for me, I'll catch up with the rest as I am able.

I do love the idea of "Meeting the Sabbath" with joyful trembling.
I loved Sundays as a child. It was a day set apart for worship and family.

 

[unknown]

I do love the idea of "Meeting the Sabbath" with joyful trembling.
I loved Sundays as a child. It was a day set apart for worship and family.

I am always looking forward to the next Sabbath.

May God bless you always and all ways.

 

[JosephR]

The analogy of men and fish was written about by Gamaliel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel
There was more to it than just fishing. There was also the matter of what one is fishing for.


So that puts this saying in a somewhat different light for me than the way I used to think about "fishers of men". It also shines a different light on the time Jesus sent Peter to the Jordan to catch a fish to pay their taxes.


According to Gamaliel, I would think the biggest fish is the one from the Mediterranean. But this saying also speaks to me of conservation of the creation.

I particularly like how in Thomas the small fish are cast back to sea to let grow as opposed to cast away to waste in the other gospels.

And I think the large fish are those who are open and aware of the greater spiritual teachings, mature in spirit to say,and the small or just that, still growing and less in touch with God and spirituality.

 

[freelight]

The words of Jesus are worth re-considering.....

The words of Jesus are worth re-considering.....

I'm starting this thread due to a conversation in another thread. You're welcome to join in.

My personal thoughts on the logia.

"Great minds discuss ideas and concepts.
Average minds discuss things and places.
Small minds just talk about other people."

Many great minds have discussed many great ideas over the course of the development of the human consciousness. Contributions to the collective consciousness have been added throughout something we call history. We can index these contributions by date.

I have to take that into consideration while examining any text. I ask, where did this come from? Much of the logia are paralleled in the NT and those date back to Torah. Others have their parallels elsewhere. We are looking at a Coptic translation.

The Wiki article has info about the text and dating for those in doubt about what is believed about this text by others. How we know of it's existence from other texts (in their time) and so on.


Having said I that, I see the sayings (logia) as a collection of one particular "wisdom" of that time. I try to trace the source in time to see what school of thought produced it. The disciples (students) were sent out into the world; that's when they became Apostles. That's what the word means; sent out. It's the same root for the word postal i.e. to send something by the post office.

We see from various texts that these apostles (or whoever actually wrote the text in the name of the Apostles) did not always teach in the same manner with exactly the same understanding. That is the same thing we see in the real world today. A man goes to school and learns to be a preacher. Thousands of men attended the same course, received the same degree and teach different doctrine. Nothing new here.

So, as we go through the logia I will be asking for the origin (timewise) for the thought behind it. That will hopefully become more clear as/if the thread progresses.

~*~*~

Greetings unknown and all,...after reading thru the thread, its a matter of deciding in what order to respond to particular points,....but will will take the chronological approach per custom. I agree above, for as we study non-canonical texts, or any text for that matter, all available resources of knowledge and correlating information must be taken into account, as we relate and conclude our viewpoints on such, our minds being open to continual research, investigation and progressive revelation.

In our 'Gnostic Cosmology' thread we did a full commentary on the GOT and other Gnostic works, but that and many of our other older threads were deleted in the last server upgrade (unfortunately I found out too late to save anything). Fellow gnostics, theosophists, and spiritualists can join the 'Esoteric School of Gnostic Wisdom' social group if they like, only 2 discussion threads there at the moment.

We have an older thread on the Kaballah here.

~*~*~

As far as the first saying goes - "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings shall not taste death", this corresponds with John's record of Jesus saying "he who observes my word will not see death", this meaning the esoteric knowledge(or 'knowing') or spiritual insight/understanding within the living words of Jesus are the catalyst to awaken or re-cognize the Spirit of God within one's own being, where these 'words' become 'spirit' and 'life'.

I'm referencing the T.P. Brown translation from my kindle.

The nay-sayers here are a day late and a dollar short, since saying-sources such as the theorized "Q" and texts that are unknown that the canonized gospels possibly(supposedly) drew from can just as well be a part of a sayings collection the GOT belongs to (with modifications, some ommissions/interpolations, additions), while there might be existing an earlier codex from which all of these drew (oral and/or written). - to say nothing of criticisms that could be laid on the synoptic gospels themselves as an authentic and final/complete source of Jesus teaching, free of creative license, scribal doctoring, etc.

- don't get freelight going



pj

 

[freelight]

All are equal in the Spirit........

All are equal in the Spirit........

Thomas : 118 [114]. Simon Peter says to them: "Let Mary go out from our midst, for women are not worthy of life!" Jesus says: "See, I will draw her so as to make her male so that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who has become male will enter the Kingdom of heaven."

Seems enough by itself to know the writing is a piece of trash.

Ah,...how we jump the gun so fast,...to the last controversial passage,....did anyone see that coming?

As JR touched on earlier with some possible explanations,...there is no 'sexism' involved here, but an understanding-issue of what 'male' and 'female' represents to this particular 'school'. Once the allegorical nature of the terms are properly contextualized, the inner details may become more illumined.

If we consider this from a more gnostic perspective,...since there is neither male nor female in the 'Spirit'...when we view each in the Light, these gender-denominations dissolve, for we are all one.

Gnostics mind you were gender-versatile and gave women equal spiritual rights in their orders, as able ministers along with men. Mary Magdalene and the traditions of her legacy prove this, as she held a spiritual status above many men, and a special intimacy with Jesus. We might also NOTE that some scholars feel that the GOT is not necessarily even 'Gnostic' by formal definition, (so that it teaches expressly 'gnostic' principles is debatable).


pj

 

[freelight]

rebirth......

rebirth......

Yeah Kabbalah teaches reincarnation, many cultures do. The Kabbalists say we can't make all the corrections in one lifetime so we come back to make more corrections. They say we come back at the same level of correction that we let from.

Indeed, soul's continue their evolution of life to the unfolding of their potential, thru multiple life-experiences. - there are different theories and mechanisms involved in the 'process' explained variously by different schools. In the thread below, you'll note I was taking some time in studying Theosophy's view on this as it concerns so many aspects of the 'soul' that are most intricate, as far as what aspects are eternal and those that are subject to distintegration. - it assumes definitions and terms from Hindu/Buddhist schools, which may provide a missing key in some modern presentations.

See our extant thread on Reincarnation here.




pj

 

[unknown]

Indeed, soul's continue their evolution of life to the unfolding of their potential, thru multiple life-experiences. - there are different theories and mechanisms involved in the 'process' explained variously by different schools. In the thread below, you'll note I was taking some time in studying Theosophy's view on this as it concerns so many aspects of the 'soul' that are most intricate, as far as what aspects are eternal and those that are subject to distintegration. - it assumes definitions and terms from Hindu/Buddhist schools, which may provide a missing key in some modern presentations.

See our extant thread on Reincarnation here.

pj

Hi freelight/pj/amigo, namaste!

I don't worry about my soul anymore, I gave that to the Creator along with everything else. I know that I am being lead thru transformations (mitzvot) whether I am aware of it or not. I trust The Creator has already taking care of all that is required.

Thanks for joining us. I didn't get too involved with my study of Gnostic traditions, teachings or history. Much for the same reasons I didn't get deep into some parts of Kabbalah, Taoism, Buddhism etc. I'm not really looking for "God". If I know where the switch is and the light comes on, why should I inspect the wiring? When the light is not coming on check the switch first (we Know the bulb is Good). For those who don't understand my analogy, I will tell you "the switch" is called "Love You Neighbor), it's hidden, way up high and hard to reach. So high in fact, that one will need to be lifted up to reach it.

I have always sought truth. I have been lied to my whole life and as a young child I hated it. I didn't hate anybody when I found out they lied when told me about Santa, the E.bunny or tooth fairy. But then, around 6 years of age someone tried to teach me to hate blacks (my uncle). My young little brain rejected that as soon as I heard it the first time. My hatred at that moment was toward my uncle and it was the first time I had that feeling. The search for truth will lead to The Creator but the pieces of the puzzle are scattered out on the journey we call our life.

I welcome your input here on this topic. I may even take notes this time around.

 

[freelight]

Saying 2

Saying 2

~*~*~

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

We might note that other translations say, "shall rule over the 'totality', the 'universe', or the 'entirety', so the concept here is one of total self-government or 'mastery'.

The Gospel of Thomas Home-page (mega-resource sites) Here & Here.

From what I remember about Gnosticisim, "The All" is a reference to the spiritual environment, the forces that influence a soul.

The rest is pretty understandable until the word "troubled" and the word "astonished". "Trouble" is considered suffering, astonishment is complete correction of the desire that caused the suffering. IOW the realization of the thought of The Creator. When His thoughts become our thoughts we will indeed be astonished.

To actually "rule over" the All gives me a bit of a problem. I see a more of balancing or equalization; "the all" is always influencing. Our efforts are to be at rest or in balance with our environment. I guess we could say "rule over" in the sense we have mastered this balancing act.

From a purely Gnostic point I think the ALL refers to the part of GOD in us all.From now on I will talk of God as Creator.

It should be a terrible trouble, this awakening or enlightenment He is writing about.I think this is outside of the normal programming to realize this but over all is the point. I looked over a book about meeting your guardian Angel. It said when you meet Him regard Him as a Deity and Fear Him, but at the end of the troubling, you will realize that it is the real you but you will not be familiar with the real you . It will be alien to you and terrifying, so to me this hits on the troubling.. and then of coarse the astonishing.. the realization of truth.

When you realize your true self and except it, then I think the RULE OVER part begins.

Just my thoughts on the verse so far.

In summary, the supreme rule and ultimate repose (divine rest, sovereignty) is realized as one recognizes (comes to know) his own true nature (being 'spirit'), which is 'one' with the Supreme Spirit, the false illusion of 'seperation' and 'difference' being pierced thru or transcended in the revelation of 'God' as the One Indivisible Omnipresent Reality. The 'vision' of 'The All' or the 'Pleroma' naturally comes to one's awareness as one's own inner flame is of the same essence of the original Light that makes up the fullness.

From the Gospel of the Hebrews we have these fragments -

4. As also it stands written in the Gospel of the Hebrews:
He that marvels shall reign, and he that has reigned shall rest.

(Clement, Stromateis 2.9.45.5)

To those words (from Plato, Timaeus 90) this is equivalent:

He that seeks will not rest until he finds; and he that has found shall marvel; and he that has marvelled shall reign; and he that has reigned shall rest.

(Ibid., 5.14.96.3)

- Source

~*~*~

Since this particular saying is referenced as having belonged to the original Hebrew gospel (possible relation to the Hebrew gospel of Matthew), its 'authenticity' is further supported by the GOT, as having been a saying of Jesus. It would be awesome if we had copies of Origen's and Jerome's full translation of this most wonderful gospel, but only heaven knows what happened to such, and why.

Ultimately if we take this saying to heart, it embodies the pure teaching of the Master, for thru the shattering of our own illusions and misperceptions, the truth is most shocking and in its aftermath we are left without any preconceptions or concepts of truth, but 'truth' itself. In this light, we 'reign' and have true 'rest' because there is no longer any separation between us and 'God', but only 'God'. (any 'relation' or 'differentiation' is only intellectually considered on a 'relational' level, but 'The All' both contains all 'relations' and transcends all 'relations' as what is 'absolute'.)


pj

 

[freelight]

Bishop Stephen A. Hoeller

Bishop Stephen A. Hoeller

I heard some lectures years ago by a Gnostic guy out in California named Stephan Hoeller (spelling is probably wrong). He talked quite a bit about Jung. I think he was trying to say Jung thought like the Gnostics or was showing parallels between the two, I can't remember.

Stephen A. Hoeller is the presiding Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica - he was consecrated to that office by the Duc de Palatine in 1967. Dr. Hoeller is thus the senior holder of what is sometimes called the English Gnostic Transmission in America. (There are no other bishops living in the USA who were consecrated by the Duc de Palatine.) - He's done extensive study on the Gnostic psychology connection with Jung's work. His pioneering work in Gnostic Theology in general is exemplary.

~*~*~

C. G. Jung and Gnostic Tradition:
Gnosis, Gnosticism and Jungian Psychology




pj

 

[Pnevma]

Stephen A. Hoeller is the presiding Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica - he was consecrated to that office by the Duc de Palatine in 1967. Dr. Hoeller is thus the senior holder of what is sometimes called the English Gnostic Transmission in America. (There are no other bishops living in the USA who were consecrated by the Duc de Palatine.) - He's done extensive study on the Gnostic psychology connection with Jung's work. His pioneering work in Gnostic Theology in general is exemplary.

~*~*~

C. G. Jung and Gnostic Tradition:
Gnosis, Gnosticism and Jungian Psychology




pj

That’s interesting, Freelight, no wonder I kept thinking ‘Jung’.
I haven’t yet read ‘The Red Book’ but it looks very interesting.

I did read his Dreams autobiography some years ago and have to say his work and concepts are brilliant. I’m not so sure about the man himself, as I didn’t really take to him. Mind you, I didn’t like Freud (or even Ghandi! I felt sorry for Mrs. Ghandi, as I did for Mrs Jung!).

Anyway, I digress, so now we’re going back over The Gospel of Thomas here, I’m very struck by the similarity to old school psychological theory. I’m also wondering whether Freud was aware of Kabbalah – must have been!

I have frustratingly little time to post atm, but hope to post more today, some good points being raised.

 

[Pnevma]

Yes very much Peace as Jesus teaches nothing will be hidden from God.. so do not lie or do things you hate. Or if you do and try to be with guile like you say it is for naught.

Hi Joe, sorry to be lagging behind on this.

I’m still a toddler to Kabbalah, so I’m just wondering if this ‘state’ is the best way for the creature to receive bestowal from the creator?

The part about all being hidden will be revealed fits in well with self knowledge in terms of the unconscious.

Obviously this is a huge subject, but part of the basic idea is that we have so much locked away in our unconscious mind. Only when it is bought into our awareness (so unhidden) can it then be controlled by our conscious mind. Otherwise, it can operate outside of our awareness and not only can we not control it, we don’t know it’s there.
Although others can see it.

 

[unknown]

Stephen A. Hoeller is the presiding Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica - he was consecrated to that office by the Duc de Palatine in 1967. Dr. Hoeller is thus the senior holder of what is sometimes called the English Gnostic Transmission in America. (There are no other bishops living in the USA who were consecrated by the Duc de Palatine.) - He's done extensive study on the Gnostic psychology connection with Jung's work. His pioneering work in Gnostic Theology in general is exemplary.

~*~*~

C. G. Jung and Gnostic Tradition:
Gnosis, Gnosticism and Jungian Psychology




pj

Thanks for filling in some blanks. It was years ago that I listened to him lecture on a number of things. He is also a professor of Comparative Religion. I had never heard of such a title and it caught my interest right away. He knows his stuff, that's for sure.

 

[unknown]

Hi Joe, sorry to be lagging behind on this.

I’m still a toddler to Kabbalah, so I’m just wondering if this ‘state’ is the best way for the creature to receive bestowal from the creator?

The part about all being hidden will be revealed fits in well with self knowledge in terms of the unconscious.

Obviously this is a huge subject, but part of the basic idea is that we have so much locked away in our unconscious mind. Only when it is bought into our awareness (so unhidden) can it then be controlled by our conscious mind. Otherwise, it can operate outside of our awareness and not only can we not control it, we don’t know it’s there.
Although others can see it.

The Creator is always bestowing to all of creation. Man is the only creature that has trouble receiving. That is because we exist at a higher level than the animals, plants and matter. We have trouble receiving the Light because we somehow need the illusion that we are doing something for The Creator. If we did not feel that we would not feel satisfaction "in the work", (which means study) and lose interest in seeking the Creator. He has hidden himself from us only so that we will seek Him. When we reveal The Creator, He will begin to transform our qualities to be like His. We will then be able to bestow to others. By then we should realize who made the change in us but we are satisfied because we have pursued the desire placed in us by The Creator and have not turned away from it.

 

[JosephR]

Hi Joe, sorry to be lagging behind on this.



I’m still a toddler to Kabbalah, so I’m just wondering if this ‘state’ is the best way for the creature to receive bestowal from the creator?



The part about all being hidden will be revealed fits in well with self knowledge in terms of the unconscious.



Obviously this is a huge subject, but part of the basic idea is that we have so much locked away in our unconscious mind. Only when it is bought into our awareness (so unhidden) can it then be controlled by our conscious mind. Otherwise, it can operate outside of our awareness and not only can we not control it, we don’t know it’s there.

Although others can see it.

Yes I agree what is inside us is potentially " everything" . All most infinite as it comes from the infinite Creator, huge subject indeed but I think I will move on to next saying to keep us on track as I have wanted to go thru Thomas for a while now with like minded peers


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[JosephR]

Jesus said
A farmer went out to plant,
scattering seed everywhere.

Some fell on the surface of the road.
Birds came and ate it.

Other seeds fell on rocky ground
and could not take root in the earth,
or send grain heavenward,
and so never germinated.

Still other seed fell among weeds and brambles
which choked it out, and insects devoured it.

Some, however, fell onto fertile soil
which produced fruit of high quality
yielding as much as sixty and
one-hundred and twenty percent.


Posted from the TOL App!