Theology Club: The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace

[godrulz]

You lying piece of garbage.

Subtle, but true.

Note: It is a lie if I know something is right (even if it is your wrong view), but say the opposite of what I believe on the matter. It is not a lie if it is my opinion of your view, even if I misunderstand it or misrepresent it out of ignorance. You are guilty of this many times in relation to my personal views, so get over yourself.

 

[heir]

Hogwash. There is one cross, one Christ, one finished work, one gospel POST-cross.

Prove that there is "one gospel POST-cross". Where did Peter preach in Acts 2 or 3 "how that Christ died for our sins" as the good news (gospel=good news)?

He didn't. Peter preached a murder indictment in Acts 2 to ALL the house of Israel. For the scripture saith:

Acts 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 KJV Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! (Romans 1:16 KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the fact that Jesus Christ died for YOURS and MY sins, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world was UNSEARCHABLE!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

This was all revealed TO and THROUGH the apostle Paul TO us by revelation of the risen, ascended, Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[heir]

Hogwash. There is one cross, one Christ, one finished work, one gospel POST-cross.

Where did Peter in Acts 2 (since that's where you say the church began and that it's all the same gospel post cross) tell the people they are saved by grace through faith like Paul told the Ephesians?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He didn't. He told them to DO SOMETHING.

Acts 2:37-38 KJV Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You can't make things that are different be the same. You have two choices. Believe the Bible means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it (and it's all not written directly TO you)

OR

explain it away...as you do.

 

[heir]

There is no biblical, logical, theological support for two gospel theories.

There is and I've demonstrated it in this thread alone more than a few times.

 

[Pneuma]

I love your perverted nonanswers and evasions. You said Peter wasn't to go to gentiles then was to go to gentiles. It can't be both. You want to change your screen name to Bill Clinton or something?

Huh? never said anything of the kind. If you cannot understand my words not much hope for you being able to understand the word written in scripture.

Nope I do not have delusions or earthy grandeur Mr. Reagan

 

[Pneuma]

That is NOT what the scripture says.

This is speaking of the gospel of God. The who of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of Christ, the WHAT of the cross. The gospel of God can be found in Romans 1:1-4 KJV
The gospel of Christ is how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and was raised again the third day 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. No matter how much you want it to be, what Peter preached in the book of Acts was NOT the gospel of Christ.

Where does Peter say "how that Christ died for our sins? He didn't. Peter preached a murder indictment to ALL the house of Israel. For the scripture saith:

Acts 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 KJV Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

There is more than one gospel in the Bible. The gospel of YOUR salvation cannot be found back there in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and it certainly is not what Peter preached in the book of Acts. It just simply is NOT there. If the princes of this world had known "how that Christ died for our sins", they never would have crucified the Lord of glory!

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! (Romans 1:16)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the fact that Jesus Christ died for YOURS and MY sins, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world was UNSEARCHABLE!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6-12 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

In the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. And even still you are leaving out the far hence Gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)

The middle wall of partition is the law of commandments contained in ordinances between two groups of Gentiles. I'd be happy to discuss them with you in another thread.

There is no other way to the Father except through the son, if you try to climb up another way you are but a thief and a liar.

There is only ONE gospel.

What you are doing is separating between Jew and Gentile saying the Jew gets saved differently then the Gentile does. Yet we are told their is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ . And anyone who was outside of Israel was considered a Gentile. (a Greek is not an Israelite therefore he is a.......)



ONE Body, not TWO.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Gospel of the kingdom not just for the Jews. Yet according to you it is as Paul makes no mention of it.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Is an Ethiopian a Jew?

And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,


Peter preached the Gospel unto the Gentiles.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe








And I noticed in all your reply you intentionally left out the 1 question I asked.

Here it is again.

Peter at one time dissimulated and Paul called him on it. Why would Paul do this if they were not to preach the same Gospel?

 

[Pneuma]

Open up a thread here called the middle wall of partition and state your case there. This thread is about the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

I look forward to your presentation.

Sorry but just because you don't believe this concerns the middle wall I believe it goes to the heart of the matter and as this thread is not for just what you believe my point stays and I do not need to open another thread. If you have something to say then you can reply to it in this thread.

 

[Pneuma]

It wasn't the same gospel! They didn't know “that gospel” (an odd thing to say if it were the same gospel, as you say) that Paul preached among the Gentiles until he went up by revelation and communicated it unto them. It was THEN (not before) that they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul. It was THEN (not before) that they “perceived the grace” that was given unto Paul!

Galatians 2:1-2 KJV Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Galatians 2:6 KJV But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

They added nothing to Paul?! If they had been preaching the same gospel all of those years surely THEY must have added something to Paul. According to the scriptures they DIDN'T!

BUT CONTRARIWISE,…!

Galatians 2:7-9 KJV But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Did you ever think that the reason they did not add anything to what Paul preached was because they preached the same gospel so nothing needed to be added?

 

[Pneuma]

It certainly was for Israel. You know that Peter preached:

Acts 10:35 KJV But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

But Paul preached:

Titus 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

But, according to you they preached the same gospel. It's obvious that they didn't. You cannot make those two verses say the same thing no matter how hard you try.

look at the highlighted words.

 

[surrender]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He didn't. He told them to DO SOMETHING.

Paul told everyone to DO something. “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent” (Acts 17:30). “but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance” (Acts 26:20).

You see, Paul preached that you must DO something just as Peter did:

Acts 2:37-38 KJV Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[surrender]

And the fact that Jesus Christ died for YOURS and MY sins, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world was UNSEARCHABLE!

Yes, the specific details of HOW Gentiles, or anyone for that matter, would partake in the Lord’s salvation was unknown, but the fact that Gentiles would partake is in the OT:

The Messiah was to be a “light of revelation to the Gentiles” (and the Jewish people, Acts 26:23) so that the Lord’s salvation would “reach the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6; 51:4). Also in Luke 2:32; Acts 13:47; Acts 26:23.

Of course, the “how” is hinted at in Isaiah 53. We see that God’s servant, Messiah, would be offered as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10), that our inequity would fall on him (Isa. 53:6), and that this would justify many (Isa. 53:11). That’s some pretty decent details.

 

[godrulz]

Where did Peter in Acts 2 (since that's where you say the church began and that it's all the same gospel post cross) tell the people they are saved by grace through faith like Paul told the Ephesians?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He didn't. He told them to DO SOMETHING.

Acts 2:37-38 KJV Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You can't make things that are different be the same. You have two choices. Believe the Bible means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it (and it's all not written directly TO you)

OR

explain it away...as you do.

Funny how UPC makes Acts 2:38 THE gospel verse and MAD makes it a non-Church Age verse. There are interpretative issues. Those who think that the verse is making water baptism a condition of grace in any sense have not looked at the underlying Greek, parenthetical isssue, and compared it to other verses of Peter. The resolution is sound exegesis, not MAD's two gospel theory.

Don't be stubborn and/or stupid. Just because you don't get it does not mean that most have not through the centuries. All truth is not in Acts 2, but I clearly see the person and work of Christ there, the gospel. It is contextualized for the Jewish audience just as Paul contextualized it at Athens for a Greek audience (same gospel). Likewise, Hebrews and Romans are equally valid, strong statements of the one NT gospel contextualized for different audiences. The 4 Gospels also have an emphasis that differs primarily vs exclusively for Jew (Mt.), Roman (Mk.), Greek (Lk.), believers (Jn. Jew/Gentile). Paul fleshed out more doctrinal detail over time, but post-cross is the same Christocentric issue for all men (the fundamentals of redemption do not lead to your caste system).

You are wrong and it is frustrating that you think you are infallible/omniscience, the world's best scholar in your arrogant ignorance.

 

[godrulz]

There is and I've demonstrated it in this thread alone more than a few times.

Satisfies you because of confirmation bias, but I cannot go against sound exegesis/theology. Those who hold wrong views don't think they do, but think everyone else is wrong (pride).

 

[Lighthouse]

I'm not trying to change godrulz' mind on any of this. I'm just posting Scripture that shows him to be ignorant of God's word.

 

[godrulz]

I'm not trying to change godrulz' mind on any of this. I'm just posting Scripture that shows him to be ignorant of God's word.

All you are showing is that I do not agree with YOUR interpretation of the Word. This does not make me ignorant of the Word properly interpreted.:ha:

 

[Lighthouse]

All you are showing is that I do not agree with YOUR interpretation of the Word. This does not make me ignorant of the Word properly interpreted.:ha:

Is sin imputed?

 

[godrulz]

Is sin imputed?

No, sin is not a thing, but a wrong moral choice. As I have said before, a word study is in order. There are also a variety of views on what imputation means or not held by sincere believers through the years...all claiming biblical support.

What I do know is that Exchanged Life and MAD are not the way to go on this point.

 

[Lighthouse]

No, sin is not a thing, but a wrong moral choice. As I have said before, a word study is in order. There are also a variety of views on what imputation means or not held by sincere believers through the years...all claiming biblical support.

What I do know is that Exchanged Life and MAD are not the way to go on this point.

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.
-Romans 4:8

(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
-Romans 5:13

What about righteousness?

just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
-Romans 4:6

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
-Romans 4:11

Ellogeo

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]to reckon in, set to one's account, lay to one's charge, impute [/FONT]

Logizomai
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
   1. to take into account, to make an account of
      1. metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
      2. a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
   2. to number among, reckon with
   3. to reckon or account
2. to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3. by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
   1. to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
   2. to suppose, deem, judge
   3. to determine, purpose, decide

I also noticed you didn't post any Scripture to support your definition of sin.

[/FONT]

 

[godrulz]

A systematic theology text will give you verses about the multi-faceted nature of sin (hamartiology). If you look at all the verses related to sin and the principles, you will see that it is not a substance, not genetic, etc. (unless you make metaphors wooden literalisms).

Sin is a wrong moral choice, rebellion, disobedience, missing the mark, lawlessness, volitional, etc. This can be established from many verses, so don't limit it to your myopic view only.

Doing Greek word studies involves more than listing a source. There is a reason not all versions use 'impute', etc. These things are nuanced, complex at times, interpretative, etc.

 

[Nick M]

Sin is a wrong moral choice, rebellion, disobedience, missing the mark, lawlessness, volitional, etc.

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Sin is transgression of the law.