Theology Club: The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace

[Pneuma]

No, rulz. Paul went to the Jew first and also to the Greek to gather the remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew into the Body of Christ.

Romans 1:15-16 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 11:1-5 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

His ministry had nothing to do with the ministry given the 12 apostles in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Please notice it was Paul's my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,...

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


In fact, not only did Paul's ministry have nothing to do with the 12's, he couldn't have even been forgiven under their good news at all because he blasphemed the Holy Ghost.


Matthew 12:31 KJV Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew 12:32 KJV And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

How then do you explain he preached the same gospel? And can you explain why Paul received mercy even though he was before a blasphemer?

And BTW, John 3:16 is not the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...

Paul preached the same Gospel that he once persecuted other for.

Galatians 1:23
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Paul preached the same Gospel to the Jew first and then to the Greek.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. If there are two gospels then you are saying the is a difference between Jew and Greek in Christ.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Did you get all that? The gentile and the Jews have been made ONE in Christ. If there are two Gospels then they cannot be ONE in Christ.


14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

What is this middle wall of partition?


15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Do you see that? ONE new man in Christ

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Reconciled BOTH unto God in ONE body by the cross.


17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

What is the foundation Paul tells us this Gospel is built upon? The foundation of the apostles, and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


MAD simply builds up that which Christ tore down.

Peter at one time dissimulated and Paul called him on it. Why would Paul do this if they were not to preach the same Gospel.

 

[surrender]

The normative pattern for Jesus and Paul was to go to Jew first, but Paul experienced a shift when the Jews continued to reject the Messiah. He was raised up to take the gospel to the Gentiles primarily, but not exclusively.

Exactly. Although the good news for the uncircumcised had been committed to Paul and the same good news for the circumcised had been committed to Peter, Paul began with the Jew first and then eventually went to primarily the Gentiles.

 

[godrulz]

Exactly. Although the good news for the uncircumcised had been committed to Paul and the same good news for the circumcised had been committed to Peter, Paul began with the Jew first and then eventually went to primarily the Gentiles.

It is a normative ministry pattern, not evidence of two true post-cross gospels. Peter also preached to Gentiles (and Jews) and Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles. It is a primary/secondary missionary strategy evolving in the early church. Two gospel theories are not supported and contradict basic NT principles/theology.

 

[Nick M]

We also see Peter going first to the gentile, does that make Peter double minded? or does it simply show that in Christ there is neither Jew or gentile.

You, like godrulz, didn't answer the question and explain Paul's statement. He went to the circumcision, and Peter to the uncircumcision. Yet Paul said this.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

So, what does he mean knowing he did go to the circumcision? It is easy. He is preaching his gospel of grace that Peter was not given.

I love your perverted nonanswers and evasions. You said Peter wasn't to go to gentiles then was to go to gentiles. It can't be both. You want to change your screen name to Bill Clinton or something?

 

[godrulz]

I love your perverted nonanswers and evasions. You said Peter wasn't to go to gentiles then was to go to gentiles. It can't be both. You want to change your screen name to Bill Clinton or something?

Others try to point out contradictions in Scripture, but there is a clue to resolve them (e.g. God says something about one time in history and then a contradictory thing at another time in history; if one wrongly assumes they are the same event, there is an apparent contradiction vs actual one).

All believers, including Jesus, reached out to all men. This was God's intent even in the early OT. Just because someone goes first or primarily to one group does not mean it is exclusive or not dynamic/circumstantial. MAD tries to put everything in a neat box when there is actually a spectrum of dynamic issues happening. Acts is selective, transitional history. You are trying to read it as didactic or exhaustive.

 

[Bright Raven]

So why are there scriptures that seem to indicate two Gospels if there is only one?

 

[heir]

Paul preached the same Gospel that he once persecuted other for.

That is NOT what the scripture says.

Galatians 1:23
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

This is speaking of the gospel of God. The who of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of Christ, the WHAT of the cross. The gospel of God can be found in Romans 1:1-4 KJV

Paul preached the same Gospel to the Jew first and then to the Greek.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel of Christ is how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and was raised again the third day 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. No matter how much you want it to be, what Peter preached in the book of Acts was NOT the gospel of Christ.

Where does Peter say "how that Christ died for our sins? He didn't. Peter preached a murder indictment to ALL the house of Israel. For the scripture saith:

Acts 2:36-38 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 KJV Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They (all the house of Israel-every one of them) were to repent (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (water baptized) for the REMISSION of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. NO MENTION "how that Christ died for our sins".

There is more than one gospel in the Bible. The gospel of YOUR salvation cannot be found back there in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and it certainly is not what Peter preached in the book of Acts. It just simply is NOT there. If the princes of this world had known "how that Christ died for our sins", they never would have crucified the Lord of glory!

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth! (Romans 1:16)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the fact that Jesus Christ died for YOURS and MY sins, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world was UNSEARCHABLE!

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6-12 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

In the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. And even still you are leaving out the far hence Gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)

Did you get all that? The gentile and the Jews have been made ONE in Christ. If there are two Gospels then they cannot be ONE in Christ.


14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

What is this middle wall of partition?

The middle wall of partition is the law of commandments contained in ordinances between two groups of Gentiles. I'd be happy to discuss them with you in another thread.

 

[heir]

I disagree with heir's proof texting and preconceived ideas. If she cannot understand Gal. 2:7 properly...?

You disagree with the scripture.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

 

[heir]

I already gave you a half dozen scriptures that show that MAD build up the wall Jesus tore down. So if you really intend to debate you can start with them.

Open up a thread here called the middle wall of partition and state your case there. This thread is about the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace.

I look forward to your presentation.

 

[heir]

So why are there scriptures that seem to indicate two Gospels if there is only one?

Hi BR,

The scriptures indicate more than two gospels in the Bible. Good news=gospel and there is certainly more than one "good news throughout the Bible and even more than two. It is men who say there's only ever been one because of what they have been taught in the religious, denominational churches. They go with tradition over the truth.

 

[heir]

All believers, including Jesus, reached out to all men.

Matthew 15:22-24 KJV And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[heir]

I disagree with heir's proof texting and preconceived ideas. If she cannot understand Gal. 2:7 properly...?

Kindly answer the questions in post #56

Thank you in advance.

 

[DOCTA4me]

Both Abraham and David were righteous because of their faith (Romans 4:1-8).

Abraham was the father of two groups.

 

[DOCTA4me]

Rom. 4-5 shows that grace/faith were still the issues in the OT. Obedience demonstrated heart faith/love. No one kept the law perfectly, but were condemned by it. Even grace believers should keep God's moral law (vs civic/ceremonial laws) lest we condone murder and adultery.

Grace is giving salvation to someone who does not deserve it. Faith is believing that God will do want He promised.

God promised Israel that He would provide redemption if they kept the law, including sacrifices when they sinned. Those who believed him displayed faith. Those who tried to keep the law and sacrifices (even though they all failed to do so perfectly) received grace.

You are correct, both programs/covenants/Gospels are of faith and Grace. The difference is that one adds the requirement of works, the other does not.

 

[godrulz]

So why are there scriptures that seem to indicate two Gospels if there is only one?

This is a misreading of the Scriptures. If we look at their proof texts apart from KJV and in context (KJV translators never heard of MAD and did not believe it, though), we will not conclude MAD. Some verses seem to support Calvinism, but all verses together mitigate against it.

 

[godrulz]

You disagree with the scripture.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

I disagree with your wrong interpretation of the proof text. Don't be so arrogant. I don't disagree with proper exegesis of the passage/Scripture.

 

[godrulz]

Hi BR,

The scriptures indicate more than two gospels in the Bible. Good news=gospel and there is certainly more than one "good news throughout the Bible and even more than two. It is men who say there's only ever been one because of what they have been taught in the religious, denominational churches. They go with tradition over the truth.

MAD is not truth and all tradition is not true. We recognize Israel vs Church, OT vs NT, Jew vs Christian (moderate dispensationalism), but we rightly object to MAD's circ vs uncirc post-cross, a fad view held by few, not truth.

 

[godrulz]

Matthew 15:22-24 KJV And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Other verses show that Jesus reached out to Samaritans and Gentiles. He came initially and primarily for Israel. Even if Israel was intended to continue with her role, she rejected the Messiah and there was a shift to the Gentiles. I am Open Theist and don't disagree with everything in The Plot.

 

[godrulz]

Kindly answer the questions in post #56

Thank you in advance.

I have repeatedly pointed out the Greek genitive issue (to vs of), the context, and demarcation of ministry principle. You just reject my view because you are tunneled on your wrong view.

 

[godrulz]

Grace is giving salvation to someone who does not deserve it. Faith is believing that God will do want He promised.

God promised Israel that He would provide redemption if they kept the law, including sacrifices when they sinned. Those who believed him displayed faith. Those who tried to keep the law and sacrifices (even though they all failed to do so perfectly) received grace.

You are correct, both programs/covenants/Gospels are of faith and Grace. The difference is that one adds the requirement of works, the other does not.

Rom. 4-5 disagrees with the works part in the OT. Faith is expressed differently in works/obedience between OT/NT, but all the works in the world are still self-righteous rags and fall short of God's standard of perfection. Obedience is required, but cannot be a condition of salvation in light of grace/faith/holiness/perfection.