Theology Club: The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace

[Pneuma]

Galatians 2:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Explain what is the Gospel to the circumcision and what is the Gospel to the uncircumcision. If they are not different why did he differentiate between the two?

Godrulz already answered that when he said

No, this is a demarcation of ministry like you taking the gospel to Americans and me taking the gospel to my fellow Canadians.

BR maybe you can make an answer to the points I brought up as the other MAD believers have left them unanswered.





ONE Body, not TWO.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Gospel of the kingdom not just for the Jews. Yet according to MAD it is as Paul makes no mention of it.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Is an Ethiopian a Jew?

And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,


Peter preached the Gospel unto the Gentiles.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe







And I noticed in all your reply you intentionally left out the 1 question I asked.

Here it is again.

Peter at one time dissimulated and Paul called him on it. Why would Paul do this if they were not to preach the same Gospel?

 

[Pneuma]

If there is one gospel the Jews and one to the Gentiles why does Paul say there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision?

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


Paul says circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Here Paul also says we are to keep the commandments of God. Why would he say that if only the Jew was to keep the commandments of God?

1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Bright Raven]

Godrulz already answered that when he said






BR maybe you can make an answer to the points I brought up as the other MAD believers have left them unanswered.





ONE Body, not TWO.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Gospel of the kingdom not just for the Jews. Yet according to MAD it is as Paul makes no mention of it.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Is an Ethiopian a Jew?

And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,


Peter preached the Gospel unto the Gentiles.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe







And I noticed in all your reply you intentionally left out the 1 question I asked.

Here it is again.

Peter at one time dissimulated and Paul called him on it. Why would Paul do this if they were not to preach the same Gospel?

It would make it easier if you would give the entire scripture address, but I'll give it a shot.

BTW, Godrulz is incorrect. Peter and the eleven preached repentance and baptism for salvation.
Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul preached the DBR of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

If one body and I am not saying there is not, why the circumcision and the uncircucision?

I would think the Ethiopian to be a Jew from from Acts 8:27. He was returning from worship in Jerusalem.

Peter ate as the Gentiles ate and reneged when the circumcision came from Jerusalem. This does not say that He did not preached to the Gentiles which He did. He spoke to Cornelius before Paul was separated out to preach to the Gentiles and he preached repentance and baptism.

If I have missed something please show me and I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

[Bright Raven]

If there is one gospel the Jews and one to the Gentiles why does Paul say there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision?

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Are you not out of context in that Paul is saying that there is no carnality in Christ?

Paul says circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Here Paul also says we are to keep the commandments of God. Why would he say that if only the Jew was to keep the commandments of God?

1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And what does this have to do with preaching to either the Gentile or Jew? I believe you are out of context again in that there was still a demarcation between the ministries of the twelve and Paul. Is not he a Jew who is one inwardly? This deals with the Jews requirement to be circumcised and Paul said it was not necessary.

 

[Pneuma]

It would make it easier if you would give the entire scripture address, but I'll give it a shot.

BTW, Godrulz is incorrect. Peter and the eleven preached repentance and baptism for salvation.
Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul preached the DBR of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul also taught repentance to salvation

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Paul also baptised

1 Corinthians 1:14-16
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If one body and I am not saying there is not, why the circumcision and the uncircucision?

Colossians 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

I would think the Ethiopian to be a Jew from from Acts 8:27. He was returning from worship in Jerusalem.

Nothing to suggest that he was a Ethiopian Jew. If we go that way we can also say that Paul preached to the lost tribes of Israel that were scattered throughout the Gentile nations and did not really preach to the Gentiles.

Peter ate as the Gentiles ate and reneged when the circumcision came from Jerusalem. This does not say that He did not preached to the Gentiles which He did. He spoke to Cornelius before Paul was separated out to preach to the Gentiles and he preached repentance and baptism.

So what have we seen so far? We have seen that both Peter and John preached to the Gentiles and that Paul preached to the Jews.

Why? If it was a different gospel what were they doing, trying to tear down each others gospel? Some believe that, I do not.

 

[Pneuma]

Are you not out of context in that Paul is saying that there is no carnality in Christ?



And what does this have to do with preaching to either the Gentile or Jew? I believe you are out of context again in that there was still a demarcation between the ministries of the twelve and Paul. Is not he a Jew who is one inwardly? This deals with the Jews requirement to be circumcised and Paul said it was not necessary.

Well what was Paul doing telling the Jew it was not necessary for them to be circumcised?

The natural branches and the grafted in Gentile are part of the SAME tree.

 

[Pneuma]

The Gospel of Christ is to both the Jew and the Gentile.


Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Bright Raven]

Paul also taught repentance to salvation.

This is crux of the matter.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15

The Gospel of the 12 to the Jews is Repent and be baptized.
Acts 2:38
The Gospel of Paul to the Gentiles is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

I would ask for you to show me where Peter or any of the 12 preached the Death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Pneuma]

This is crux of the matter.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15

The Gospel of the 12 to the Jews is Repent and be baptized.
Acts 2:38
The Gospel of Paul to the Gentiles is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

I would ask for you to show me where Peter or any of the 12 preached the Death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

What do you think baptisim is? It is death, burial and resurrection.



And the crux of the matter is. Peter and John preached to the Gentiles and Paul preached to the Jews. MAD has to explain this if it wants to be taken seriously.

 

[Pneuma]

BR this

Peter ate as the Gentiles ate and reneged when the circumcision came from Jerusalem. This does not say that He did not preached to the Gentiles which He did. He spoke to Cornelius before Paul was separated out to preach to the Gentiles and he preached repentance and baptism.

Did not answer my question, which was

Peter at one time dissimulated and Paul called him on it. Why would Paul do this if they were not to preach the same Gospel?

Peter through his dissimulation taught others to dissimulate after the same fashion, Paul called him (Peter) on it. WHY?

 

[Bright Raven]

What do you think baptisim is? It is death, burial and resurrection.

Try again, water baptism at that point in time was John's baptism as attested by scripture, repentance, not death burial resurrection of Christ. Paul defined water baptism as DBR of Jesus.

And the crux of the matter is. Peter and John preached to the Gentiles and Paul preached to the Jews. MAD has to explain this if it wants to be taken seriously.

And this was before Paul was called out to the Gentiles. Interesting how even though both Paul and Peter admit to being called to different groups that there are differences in their messages which is made perfectly clear in Galatians 2:7

Galatians 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

 

[Pneuma]

Try again, water baptism at that point in time was John's baptism as attested by scripture, repentance, not death burial resurrection of Christ. Paul defined water baptism as DBR of Jesus.

You have not understood baptism then BR. What you do by this reasoning is the same as Paul told us NOT to do, which was dividing Christ, and he was speaking of baptism.


myQuote:
And the crux of the matter is. Peter and John preached to the Gentiles and Paul preached to the Jews. MAD has to explain this if it wants to be taken seriously.

And this was before Paul was called out to the Gentiles. Interesting how even though both Paul and Peter admit to being called to different groups that there are differences in their messages which is made perfectly clear in Galatians 2:7

It does NOT matter if it was before Paul was called or not, Peter still preached to the Gentiles. And if it was a different Gospel then what Paul taught them then Peter was teaching the gentile to dissimulate.

Galatians 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Godrulz already answered this and I have repeated it time and again. Is what godrulz said really that hard to understand?

 

[Bright Raven]

You have not understood baptism then BR. What you do by this reasoning is the same as Paul told us NOT to do, which was dividing Christ, and he was speaking of baptism.

I see no reason to go any further with this. According to your logic. John the Baptist taught the DBR of Christ through water baptism before Christ's death. And what was John's baptism? REPENTANCE!

Godrulz did not explain Galatians 2:7, but he as do you try to explain it away.

 

[Lighthouse]

Acts 2


I read the extended passage and see Acts 2 disp, not MAD. You read it and see MAD, not Acts 2 disp.

It is as much a paradigm issue as a proof text one (like Calvinism, we can quote the same verses, but interpret them differently, due to a paradigm vs proof text issue).

I see Gal. 2:7 as a demarcation of ministry, while you see it as two gospels.

I read I Cor. 1 and see that baptismal regeneration is false and Paul did not personally baptize his converts. You read it and think there was a gospel that needed baptism vs Paul's gospel that would reject it.

I have given verses and links with verses, but you will just dismiss them, rely on KJV vs original Greek, etc.

Will not is not cannot.

We are :deadhorse:

You want a verse that disproves MAD or proves my view. I told you we do not prove or disprove the trinity based on one verse, but must look at the cumulative evidence.

The fact that there are disp/covenantal views and a variety of views, even in your ultradisp camp, shows that throwing verses around will not likely resolve the issue (making me think we are all partially right/wrong and it is not as clear cut as you think).

We're talking about the definition of sin. Nice try at obfuscation, though.

Huh? where did you get that understanding from? it was Paul who founded the church at Ephesus.

So what was John doing writting to them if he was only suppose to be writting to the Jews?

Because it's impossible for there to have been more than one church in Ephesus.

 

[godrulz]

So what is your point? Revelation was written to assemblies of Jews. The Twelve wrote to the Jews, Paul wrote to the Gentiles.

Historically, those 7 churches were not just Jewish assemblies. STP says they were not even first century churches, but ones in the future Tribulation?!

The 12 may have wrote to a primarily Jewish audience, but Paul also addressed Jewish and Gentile issues. It is bad hermeneutics/theology to hyper-disp the NT the way MAD does.

Hebrews and Romans are contextualized for different audiences, but they are equally valid statements of the ONE true NT gospel (others are false).

 

[godrulz]

John pastored the Church at Ephesus from 70 AD until his exile.
This is a rather interesting article if you have time for it. http://www.matthewmcgee.org/7church.html

Many would disagree with this MAD biased writer. Many teachers of questionable doctrine sound good and logical, but can be refuted by those who are more informed.

 

[godrulz]

Galatians 2:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Explain what is the Gospel to the circumcision and what is the Gospel to the uncircumcision. If they are not different why did he differentiate between the two?

Check other versions and the context. This is a demarcation of ministry, not two true post-cross gospel messages.

I am disappointed you have fallen for the half truths of MAD.

 

[godrulz]

This is crux of the matter.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15

The Gospel of the 12 to the Jews is Repent and be baptized.
Acts 2:38
The Gospel of Paul to the Gentiles is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

I would ask for you to show me where Peter or any of the 12 preached the Death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Arggg....Acts 2:38 must be exegeted in context. It is fully consistent with I Cor. 15. Peter would not teach baptismal regeneration/condition of salvation since this is heretical in every dispensation (Jn. 1:12; 3:16).

You are spouting MADisms like a parrot without understanding. Again, I am disappointed.

 

[godrulz]

I see no reason to go any further with this. According to your logic. John the Baptist taught the DBR of Christ through water baptism before Christ's death. And what was John's baptism? REPENTANCE!

Godrulz did not explain Galatians 2:7, but he as do you try to explain it away.

Jesus and Paul also taught repentance.

JB is pre-cross, while MAD heresy in dispute is whether there is one or two gospels post-cross. Even for JB, repentance, not baptism was the condition. Repentant faith is consistent with Paul and the rest of the NT writers.

We are exegeting Gal. 2:7 in light of all relevant data. You think we are explaining it away because we don't agree with your wrong MAD proof texting of it (check out other versions, commentators, original languages, context...MAD does not stand up on this point).

 

[Pneuma]

I see no reason to go any further with this. According to your logic. John the Baptist taught the DBR of Christ through water baptism before Christ's death. And what was John's baptism? REPENTANCE!

Godrulz did not explain Galatians 2:7, but he as do you try to explain it away.

And I gave you scripture that shows Paul also taught repentance to salvation

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


you simply refuse to answer to it because your MAD:ha::first: