The catastrophic tsunami in Asia was....

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Natural Disasters/ Tsunamis

Re: Natural Disasters/ Tsunamis

Originally posted by STONE

Does God have providence over disasters?
What is their reason or purpose?

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

STONE I was of course leading up to this verse in which Jesus makes the point that some things just happen!

It wasn't divine judgment or part of some cosmic plan but just a random tragic event.

Great point!

 

[STONE]

I was unaware of this thread, and appreciate you moving the post knight.

Here is a speculative question for any and all to answer:
Before Adam sinned would God have allowed him to be killed by a Tsunami or any disaster (aside from the fact that Adam was the only man)? Why or why not?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by STONE

I was unaware of this thread, and appreciate you moving the post knight.

Here is a speculative question for any and all to answer:
Before Adam sinned would God have allowed him to be killed by a Tsunami or any disaster (aside from the fact that Adam was the only man)? Why or why not?

Well... before sin (and the flood) there would not have been the geographic and geologic features that would lead to a Tsunami.

But lets change the tragedy....

Pre.... sin and pre flood.....

Let's assume a large coconut fell from a large tree hitting Adam on the head hard enough to kill him. It is my guess that God would not have supernaturally moved Adam out of harm's way yet God may have supernaturally healed Adam from his head injury (via a angel or by other means). This scenario seems to be more in line with God's character and how He interacts with freewill agents based on what we read from His word.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by JRHoffman

How about a natural event that occurs when the plates of the earth shift. Of course the plates of the earth only shift because the flood in Noah's day caused the tilting of the earth and placed undo strain on them. So lets blame it on Satan and his introduction of sin which resulted in the flood in the first place.

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by deardelmar

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event.

I can see that connection.

Although this wasn't a specific judgment against a specific group of people.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by deardelmar

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event.

"cursed is the ground (earth) for thy sake". This seems to agree with your position.

 

[BillyBob]

I'd like to know who the knuckleheads are that actually think this is a sign of Global Warming. :dunce:

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight
Let's assume a large coconut fell from a large tree hitting Adam on the head hard enough to kill him. It is my guess that God would not have supernaturally moved Adam out of harm's way yet God may have supernaturally healed Adam from his head injury (via a angel or by other means). This scenario seems to be more in line with God's character and how He interacts with freewill agents based on what we read from His word.

Consider this verse:

"Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

 

[JRHoffman]

Those of the dispensational premil mindset might say this was a fullfilment of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Maybe Hal Lindsay and his cohorts will be able to use this event and manipulate scripture to get a date for the second coming and sell some more tapes

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by STONE

Consider this verse:

"Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

I think that would be a good argument if it were written about Adam or about pre-sin or pre-flood times...... but it isn't

Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

As did Jews in the time that this Psalm was written.

Therefore, I believe this is a figurative way for David to communicate that God would be on his (their) side and be a protector if David leaned not on his own understandings (Proverbs 3:5) yet by acknowledging God in all his ways he would have the assistance of God.

 

[Sozo]

I really believe that verse is refering to those who are in Christ, and is simply reporting that nothing shall separate them from God.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Originally posted by Z Man

The book of Job taught us that God is in control of this Earth and all of her 'phenomenons'.

Sorta. I don't know if we can directly say that Satan caused it, but I do believe God did. Either indirectly through Satan, or directly by Himself, I don't know, but I do know He's in control, and that means He was in control of that tsunami.

:kookoo:

Think I'm nuts? Read your Bible:


Job 26:12, 14
He stirs up the sea with His power, And by His understanding He breaks up the storm. ... But the thunder of His power who can understand?

Job 38:4-11
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'

Psalms 33:7
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses.

Psalms 89:9; 93:4,5
You rule the raging of the sea; When its waves rise, You still them.

The Lord on high is mightier Than the noise of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea. The sea is His, for He made it; And His hands formed the dry land.


Now who's nuts for saying God was not in control of the tsunami; that it was just some 'random event'?

 

[Sozo]

Zman... do you believe that there is such a thing as entropy, or does God randomly cause everything to deteriorate?

Does God cause my milk to spoil if I leave it on the counter?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z-Man references....

Isaiah 46:9-10
And do not forget the things I have done throughout history. For I am God – I alone! I am God, and there is no one else like me. Only I can tell you what is going to happen even before it happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.

What Bible version is that?

How about....

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

It was the New Living Translation. But does it matter? Both versions say the same thing.

Yes, God does what He pleases but there is nothing in that verse that states that God it pleases God to do EVERYTHING..

Why wouldn't it? Isn't everything His? He is the supreme Sovereign God, and, news flash, you're not in control - He is. Surrender to Him already, for pete's sake!

Isaiah 48:3
"I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass."
God can bring things to pass there is no disagreement there (but that certainly doesn't help your point any).

It says here that God has declared the former things from the beginning. Not only did He declare them, but He did exactly what He has declared from the beginning, and 'suddenly they came to pass'. That's called 'predestination', so yeah, it does help prove my point.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

God only directs our steps if we let Him.

"Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. "

For those that desire righteousness, of course God is the 'director of our paths'. What other perfect example is there for us to follow?

But for predestinations sake, God is in control, not us. He does as He pleases, and what He declares from the beginning, He brings to past. Thus, if you plan on doing something oneway, but God begs to differ, He wins. He'll get His way. He doesn't have to come and ask you for permission first. Those people in Southern Asia had a different agenda that Sunday morning on the beach other than being swept away by a tidal wave, but God had a different plan. Who do you think got their way? Gee, I don't know, let's turn our T.V.'s on to CNN and find out...

Job 9:3-12
If one wished to contend with God, he could not answer Him one time out of a thousand. God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered? He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea; He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?'

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Revelations 13:8
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made.

So? Of course those that reject God will not have their names in the Book of Life.

My point here was to illustrate that even Christ's sacrifice was predestined long before the world was even created. Think Adam's fall caught God by surprise? I don't think so...

Ephesians 1:4
Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

God predestined that the Body of Christ (corporately) would be Holy and blameless before the Lord. He did NOT however predestine individually who would join that Body.

Really? Why did God stop Saul on the road to Damascus? Did Saul just happen to 'bump' into God that day?

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight

I think that would be a good argument if it were written about Adam or about pre-sin or pre-flood times...... but it isn't

Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

As did Jews in the time that this Psalm was written.

Therefore, I believe this is a figurative way for David to communicate that God would be on his (their) side and be a protector if David leaned not on his own understandings (Proverbs 3:5) yet by acknowledging God in all his ways he would have the assistance of God.

Consider these:

"The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies."

"My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore."

"My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken."

"None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:"

"That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?"

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king’s counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them."

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

Zman... do you believe that there is such a thing as entropy, or does God randomly cause everything to deteriorate?

Does God cause my milk to spoil if I leave it on the counter?

Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Z Man

Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time.

Not directly!
Hmmm, ZMan, so the rational is if God created the science of it, then it must be His fault? Sheesh!!!!

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by granite1010

Did you even read Soulman's post or did it simply not compute, Z?

It was just a joke man... :noid:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Not directly!
Hmmm, ZMan, so the rational is if God created the science of it, then it must be His fault? Sheesh!!!!

 

[drbrumley]

You said God created the physics of it, thereby if your milk spoils, its God's fault for allowing your milk to spoil.

So, in the case of the tsunami's, God in your view, created the Tsunami directly or allowed the tsunami because He created the physics of it, or something to that effect. Thereby, any way you look at it, God directly killed up to 100,000 with this, or he allowed it. Am I close?