Thank You, President Bush

[boundtoforget]

So is this the kind of thing the USA stands for now? Starting an unprovoked war for no good reason, and then attempting to justify it after the fact? Saddam is probably no more evil than several other dictators who remain good friends with the US. Most of them are dealt with diplomatically. Why was Saddam picked on, if all the 'reasons' for the war were false reasons?

 

[boundtoforget]

Mrsnacks,

from one of your former posts:

"I'm beginning to think that the best thing for me to do in this debate is to withdraw."

Please don't. The republican-dominated Christian forums such as this need to hear as many dissenting voices as possible, in order to challenge their interpretation of the 'truth'.

I have recently been reading Isaiah, and, starting at the beginning (Chs 1-5) was struck at how many of the prophecies and judgements against Israel of that time have direct and corresponding judgements (against the USA, or perhaps even against Israel) right now.

If you feel as though you are a lone voice in a republican wilderness - don't give up!

 

[mrsnacks]

Boundtoforget : Thanks for the encouragement. I have been going thru a difficult time dealing with what I have believed the Lord has shown me. Many years ago .I started praying that the Lord would lead me to truth not only in areas of theology , but in history politics and etc. I kept an open mind thru all this testing and studying diligently the many sides of the issues.

For example I took courses in presuppositional and evidential apologetics. Two different schools of thought regarding apologetics. I listened to the 6 day creationist viewpoints and the scientists and theologians who taught that it took billions of years. Outside of theological issues I changed my views from futurism to orthodox preterism. I swallowed truths about my own personal life and it believe me --it didn't taste good. I am still going thru the sanctification process with a long way to go.

In this pursuit of truth and balance, it has led me to frustration and a feeling of being helpless. I say that because what good is it --when I've found --generally that people don't give a hoot. I'm talking about christians and non christians alike.

In regarding the world and the mideast situation , I did some research and found out things about our government and what is taught in our schools that didn't exactly ticke my ears. A friend of mine ( a historian) had me read "Tragedy and Hope " and other books to get some truth about the goings on with this country. It was shocking. Have you read " Brotherhood of Darkness ?"

Anyway I find that I am powerless and really there's nothing I can do to change the direction we are going , or to have any impact on people's thinking . I watch the news conferences on the TV knowing that it's all scripted. Questions from reporters have to be approved ahead of time . My questions are never asked by reporters. In fact I don't even own a TV. My wife and I don't watch . I only make it a point to watch it when I am in a hotel room out of town on business.

I share my knowledge with friends and others and find that there is a lot of blindness out there. I am labeled anti-semitic because i have the nerve to speak my mind and not believe the dispensational viewpoint. I don't believe it's bibical. I did follow the futurist's view for 30 years though. How can the present day Israel be God's chosen when they reject Jesus. Doesn't the scripture say that "he who rejects the Son , rejects the Father ????" The Frank Graham's ,Falwell's and Robertson's talk of Islam and other religions as evil and against our Lord, but when it comes to Jewish faith----there is no criticism. That's just for starters.

I could go on and on from one subject to the next. I am just venting (smile)

So now regarding the war. I was disappointed when I heard a newscaster say that the majority of Americans weren't concerned if the WMD were uncovered in Iraq!!!! People just don't care anymore. If you speak out against the policies of this country --- they will tell you to love it or leave it. Propaganda is everywhere else they say instead of here.

There is documentation on infowars.com that the US encouraged Iraq to invade Kuwait. The US said to Sadam that the US will do nothing if Iraq did invade Kuwait. Why doesn't that among many other facts come out ?? Where is the outrage that the US supplied Iraq with chemical and bilogical weapons ??

I do say that I am glad that sadam is out of the way. God has used the US to strip this man and others of their positions if what the media says is true about them.

I along with everyone believes that 9 11 was horrible and those who are guilty should be punished. But the facts behind the facts is what concerns me. Isn't there evidence that our government was aware that this was going to take place ?? Were the hijackers Saudis ??/ Yes. Was Saudi Arabia linked to 9 11 ?? Yes --. Was Iraq ??? No proof. Then why aren't we attacking Syria ?? Saudi Arabia ??

I heard Dr. Laura say on her show once that we should take out Iraq and Sadam for the atrocities committed. Where was she and all the others when the Soviet Union under Stalin and Lenin were responsible for millions of deaths. How about China ?? Cambodia ?? Sudan ??

We here of the UN violations of Iraq but we ignore Israel's UN violations.

So back to my point that I made earlier. What good is it to know these truths ??? What good is dialogue ??? People have made up their minds anyway. I can't do anything ?? I have no power or influence. And the way it looks no social security waiting for me.

It's really frustrating to realize that you aren't making any impact. It's amazing that people are welcoming a new world order . :help:

 

[boundtoforget]

Mr Snacks,

Thankyou for your message. It is encouraging to read some of what you say. Perhaps we can both remember that we are never in fact alone, but during our journey of sanctification, God is always there. We may feel ignored, hurt, and like a 'lone voice crying in the wilderness', but God is always there - even when we are wrong! - and especially when we are wrong, to give us the strength to get back up and keep on going.

I haven't read the books you mention, but I will look out for them.

In one very tiny way, we are not powerless. At least discussion boards such as this give an opportunity (hopefully) for open and honest debate, and a genuine seeking after God's word, and his message for us today. Maybe, just maybe, by constructively challenging the things which we see around us, we can begin to stimulate genuine debate and cause some people to question their assumptions.

I might like to start a thread (if I can figure out how to start threads on this board) where we specifically apply biblical teachings and prophecies to today's events, in order to try and determine what God might be saying to us. I am not talking about 'end-time' prophecies so much as warnings given by OT prophets to the people of the day, for their sins.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to keep in mind at all times a seeking after the truth, and a humility to be shared by all seekers, in the face of this truth, whatever their political background.
Of course, this is an ideal, and it is difficult to do when we see around us so many things which fill us with (righteous!?) anger.
Having said all this, I was most discouraged to have 2 of my anti-war threads closed down on another Christian discussion board (which shall remain nameless). So much for freedom of speech. I am glad that this board is open-minded enough to allow this thread, and our comments on it, to remain undeleted.

 

[Revelator]

President Bush is rather corrupt within mine eyes. He has been responsible for breaking UN charter and invading Iraq for little reason besides tyranny. May I remind you that President Bush:
- deliberately tried to stop the filtering of our water supply with arsenic
-excused major corporations which committed environmental crimes. An example of this is "Koch" a company that was charged with pumping more than 71 metric tons of Benzene (a cancer causing agent) into our water and air supply. Bush pardoned this company multiple times, possibly because of the company's $800000 donation to the Bush campaign.
-he made $11 million dollars off insider trading of the stock market. Thousands lost their jobs.
-his vice president's company, Halliburton, was in charge of reconstruction and regulation of oil in Iraq. There was no bidding or delegation involved with the handing over of Iraq's vast oil supply.
-We should also remember that we broke the Geneva Convention when we captured 2 Iraqi militants, sent them to a prison, to have them beat to death by the guards (illegally)
-He also objected from the Kyoto Plan, an agreement among almost every nation on earth to reduce polution.
-His speeches are continuously inconsistent with data being presented. When questioned about the WMD, he said that biological laboratories were found in trailers. No trace of any biological element was found in the trailers. It is virtually impossible to wipe something clean of biological elements.
-When we seized Iraq and the falll of Baghdad, it took a month to organize inspectors for the WMD. Blair even announced his revised priorities puttingthe search of WMD after the establishment of Iraqi welfare.
- His father unsuccessfully tried to cover up his use of cocaine in high school
- He caused a Venezuelan Conflict, resulting into revolts in Venezuela. This made gas prices skyrocket. We fully funded the revolutionaries in Venezuela to overthrow a President that was fairly elected. We did however fail horribly at this task.

 

[marc]

The Absurdity of the Iraq War

The Absurdity of the Iraq War

"The Absurdity of the Iraq War: Imprisoned in Hatred" by Horst-Eberhard Richter is available on www.portland.indymedia.org. "In immediate nearness to his oppressors, Mandela discovered a compassion and community with them in suffering. The oppressor and the oppressed are both robbed of their humanity, the oppressed by his captivity in hatred and the oppressed by degrading powerlessness.. American in Iraq stands before the mirror of its destructiveness, imprisoned in hatred and morally isolated.."
Other articles on www.portland.indymedia.org include "Theses on Nonviolent Resistance to US World Domination" by Wolfgang Sternstein and "Against the False Prophet George W. Bush" by Jurgen Fliegen.

 

[aikido7]

I am more and more convinced of President Bush as a liar and as someone who lies about his lying. It is just incredible to me how most people view him as a moral leader.

Most people do not trouble wading in to the information flow any further than the sports page or Nick Cavuto on Fox news.

The information is there. People don't want to see it. Even when it confronts them, the truth is so blatant and uncomfortable that they mindlessly mouth the week's accepted lie and say it over and over again.

Bush is disgraceful, and the people who support him are not interested in thinking or truth.

 

[Jukia]

Wait, but I thought God was on our side, how can this be that our president lied. Didn't some general just suggest that he was chosen by God to lead us at this time?

Seriously, thanks to the last few posters, you have restored my faith in the American people.

George II used WMD and 9/11 as an excuse to attempt to control the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world. Although I suspect that he was not smart enough to understand that, he just took the advice of daddy's left over advisors.

As I understand the info now, there were no major WMD's nor were there major methods to use any. The connection between 9/11 and Saddam is tenuous at best. Was Saddam a bad evil man--you bet. But so are a # of world leaders, including many we supported in the past (see the history of central and south America). If you think it is our job to be the policeman of the world then admit that, but I'll bet that most Americans could care less about that issue.

I have no problem with hunting down terrorists and getting rid of them. They came into my house on 9/11. They need to be destroyed, well they really need to be turned around and shown the error of their ways but that seems to be something very difficult to do given the economic, social and religious situation in the world.

 

[aikido7]

Originally posted by Jukia

I have no problem with hunting down terrorists and getting rid of them. They came into my house on 9/11. They need to be destroyed, well they really need to be turned around and shown the error of their ways but that seems to be something very difficult to do given the economic, social and religious situation in the world.

Bush has no problem hunting down terrorists, as long as he maintains his view of reality in simplistic terms.

You're either with us or against us, he says. And if we have to imprison innocent people, take them away from their families for years and cause uncounted anguish and resentment in that person, that family and the friends of that family's heart, then so be it.

They need to get over it, right?

 

[BillyBob]

You people are insane.

 

[aikido7]

Originally posted by BillyBob
You people are insane.

Dismissal of an argument by ad hominem is one way to deal with what is actually uncomfortable for you. What other specific ways can you think of to actually address the thoughts and criticisms in the posts above?

Show how problem-solving, dialogue and actually focusing on the specific issues are better responses than judgement and name-calling.

 

[BillyBob]

AikantHelpIfI'mInsane;
Show how problem-solving, dialogue and actually focusing on the specific issues are better responses than judgement and name-calling.

Billy;
I don't waste my time on people who are insane. You are insane.

 

[aikido7]

"I don't waste my time on people who are insane. You are insane."

How much time did you waste on composing and writing the two sentences above?

Empathy for all those who misunderstand [escpecially the lonely, angry ones]

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by aikido7
Bush has no problem hunting down terrorists, as long as he maintains his view of reality in simplistic terms.

You're either with us or against us, he says. And if we have to imprison innocent people, take them away from their families for years and cause uncounted anguish and resentment in that person, that family and the friends of that family's heart, then so be it.

They need to get over it, right?

They need to learn the lesson that fomenting hatred of The United States, because we are free, and on the side of Israel, is no longer going to be tolerated; especially when they pay terrorist's families for suicide attacks. They will be more mindful of their actions, and those of their citizenry, because of the actions of our President. The one who brings a gun, in the name of law and order, is a terror only to those who are evil. Are you afraid? You have reason to be. I don't think I can be more simplistic than that.

 

[aikido7]

"They need to learn the lesson that fomenting hatred of The United States, because we are free, and on the side of Israel, is no longer going to be tolerated; especially when they pay terrorist's families for suicide attacks. They will be more mindful of their actions, and those of their citizenry, because of the actions of our President. The one who brings a gun, in the name of law and order, is a terror only to those who are evil. Are you afraid? You have reason to be. I don't think I can be more simplistic than that."

You are so profoundly right and amazingly far-sighted. History has shown us that this approach always works!

But those profound, amazing ideas and ways of yours make me afraid--so I put my simplistic ideas with the man who rose above history and the religion that sprang from his words and deeds...

 

[aikido7]

Thank you, President Bush

Thank you, President Bush

Bush has presided over one of the most catastrophic failures in U.S. intelligence history.

He has opposed and blocked evidence for an inquest into what happend September 11, and then had the gall to name Henry Kissinger--that mortician of truth--to head the committee.

He has gotten us into an unnecessary war that has killed hundreds of our men and women and some 10,000 in "collateral damage" who don't seem to have hopes, dreams or greiving relatives who will never forget.

Bush and his government have done this even without a plan to get Baghdad's traffic lights working, much less restore civil order.

The ones who now say "I told you so" were dismissed as un-American and pawns of the enemy.

Bush has not only made Americans sitting ducks in Iraq, but taunts the murderers of our young women and men to "bring it on."

Bush is spending billions of dollars on "nation building" (breaking another campaign promise) and will pass the bill to our kids and their kids. Since he has been president, America has presided over the largest job loss figures since Herbert "Great Depression" Hoover.

He cut police and firehouse budgets, afterschool programs, Pell grants and housing allowances for the poor to give millionaires their extra helping of tax cuts. Bush has wrecked our nation's finances by running up the largest deficit in history.

He has let close to 20,000 power plants to increase air pollution in our breathable air.

He has lowered the prestige of America in just about every other country by his unilateral "us vs. them" rhetoric.

He has lied our way into war and when those lies were exposed, if a majority still prefers ignorance and obedieance to civic responsiblity, he will be re-elected.

Thank you, President Bush

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Thank you, President Bush

Re: Thank you, President Bush

Originally posted by aikido7
Bush has ...(plug in a quote from any Global News media outfit)
Thank you, President Bush

You believe too simply, and not broadly enough. You act as if there should never be a fault found in our President. He's human. He is not going to please everyone. He answers to God. God put him into that office, and He will keep him there another four years, too. He promotes whomsoever He wills, and you need to be thankful that we don't have Gore in there, dragging America into the sewer (that's about two giant steps down from the gutter, where Clinton dragged the 'reputation' of this nation, with his antics). We have God to thank for a President that believes abortion is a sin. We need to be thankful that George Bush had the guts to fight against bin Laden and his lackeys, and not try to 'find fault' with him. You don't know a good thing, when it is in your own Oval Office. You'd better watch out for snakes, because they bite. With your 'discernment,' you'll probably lie down next to one. :kookoo:

 

[aikido7]

Re: Re: Thank you, President Bush

Re: Re: Thank you, President Bush

Originally posted by Aimiel
You believe too simply, and not broadly enough. You act as if there should never be a fault found in our President. He's human. He is not going to please everyone.

I am totally unaware that I expect Bush to be without fault or human. I am not going to argue with you--I am just asking you for specific evidence in my post that I said this! Bush IS human. He is all-too-human, a rather shallow, unremarkable man who seemingly has no people skills, indulges in mocking and making fun of heartfelt Christians who are on death row and answers not to God but to his father's friends.

I wish he would answer to God, whose wisdom highlights the conflict between Bush and bin Laden-- these two petty "leaders" claiming their right to interpret their religion within the cloak of some silly notion of "fighting" what you hate and fear within yourself.

Jesus said it best when he cautioned us to forgive 70 times 7 and "resist not evil." He also knew that the first will be last and the last first. And everything hidden will be revealed.

After the attack on America, we might have had a real chance at turning things around. There was a moment, a collective pause, when the will and the heart (of those who were still able to feel human feelings and not automatically strike back on the right cheek) could have come together--for we were hurting and scared. But instead of leaving home (which is what we must eventually do), we turned instead into obedient, helpless little children and made an idol of George Bush. And he exploited that fear and goes on exploiting it for his own all-too-human ends.

God put him into that office, and He will keep him there another four years, too. He promotes whomsoever He wills, and you need to be thankful that we don't have Gore in there, dragging America into the sewer (that's about two giant steps down from the gutter, where Clinton dragged the 'reputation' of this nation, with his antics).

You may be confusing James Baker, Jeb Bush and the Florida Supreme Court with God. And you certainly confuse Gore with Clinton. But maybe you just need to keep your world nice and simple...

When Christians can climb out of the sewer of abortion's political antics, start walking their talk about adopting children with no brains and start caring about the fetus after it is born, then a great sin will be wiped away. I don't feel thankful for a president who lies and then lies about his lying. I don't feel thankful for a president who admits that he is not one given to curiousity and rarely reads a book. And I certainly don't feel thankful for a president who "pretends" he is feeling one thing while he holds quite another thing carefully locked away from the public.

We need to be thankful that George Bush had the guts to fight against bin Laden and his lackeys, and not try to 'find fault' with him. You don't know a good thing, when it is in your own Oval Office. You'd better watch out for snakes, because they bite. With your 'discernment,' you'll probably lie down next to one. :kookoo:

It takes more guts to lead America and the world into a measured and sensible confrontation with bin Laden and his sick values than going on a wild goose chase using the "shadow side" of those same, sick values. It takes guts to stick to one's promises in Afghanistan. It takes guts to admit you failed hundreds of young soldiers and their families when you went into Iraq. That's what I really call "faith-based" leadership, even when your own intelligence services had no faith and neither did the common-sense American. The former you just ignored and manipulated. The latter you called "unpatriotic" and "un-American." Some president to be proud of!

Instead of sitting in church half-listening to the droning platitudes of his pastor, he needs to wake up to the simple message of the Galilean rabbi.

Regardless of who Caesar is this year, Jesus is still around. And always will be. Are we listening?

In the wilderness Moses elevated the snake and in the same way the Son of Adam is destined to be elevated...

John 3:14

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Re: Re: Thank you, President Bush

Re: Re: Re: Thank you, President Bush

Originally posted by aikido7
I am totally unaware that I expect Bush to be without fault or human.

I'm glad that I could help to expose this to you, and to the public.

I am not going to argue with you--I am just asking you for specific evidence in my post that I said this! Bush IS human. He is all-too-human, a rather shallow, unremarkable man who seemingly has no people skills, indulges in mocking and making fun of heartfelt Christians who are on death row and answers not to God but to his father's friends.

Well, I don't see him as shallow; nor unremarkable. It takes a remarkable person just to get into that office, much more to make a go of it, and even more remarkable is his steadfast witness (as well as testimony) which is the first time that I can remember a President who is Godly, in my lifetime. I remember thinking that Kennedy was too worldly for my tastes, and he was the most Godly man in the White House since I have been alive. You chose, instead of making headway toward defending your position, to once again throw out another off-the-wall left-handed compliment against our President, once again. Don't get me wrong, I fought for your right to do just that, but this is one of the 'good guys' and you have him confused with someone that is against God. You need to pick your battles a little differently, is all.

After the attack on America, we might have had a real chance at turning things around. There was a moment, a collective pause, when the will and the heart (of those who were still able to feel human feelings and not automatically strike back on the right cheek) could have come together--for we were hurting and scared. But instead of leaving home (which is what we must eventually do), we turned instead into obedient, helpless little children and made an idol of George Bush. And he exploited that fear and goes on exploiting it for his own all-too-human ends.

Well, if you made an idol out of him and are now disappointed that he did not measure up to your projection of him, I can see why you are sore. I believe that God allowed this war, to draw people together and to draw men unto Him. He did, they are and He is.

Regardless of who Caesar is this year, Jesus is still around. And always will be. Are we listening?

Regardless of your opinion of him, President Bush was put in office by The Lord, and he will answer to The Lord and not necessarily to your leftist 'fringe-element' bitter opinion of him (thank God).

 

[marc]

In George Orwell's "1984", war became an internal necessity to divert from the real danger of dehumanization and authoritarianism. George W. had a moment when the world was full of sympathy and he squandered that moment for personal gain, i.e. the 2004 election.
The United Nations in its charter sought to outlaw the scourge of war and limit war to self-defense. The Hitlerian "preventive war" mocks the charter of the UN and its reason for being. Security is political, not military, the UN has declared. The system of collective security assumes a love for life and the humility of partnership. O God, free thy people from their warring madness. Bend our pride to thy control. Free us from identifying Halliburton interests with public interests and market fundamentalism with the survival of thye planet.
The children in the marketplace offer different contrived reasons for war. The war on terror threatens to become a war on the UN!
The truth will set us free but the truth is a process, not a cudgel!
They that take the sword will perish with the sword and with their newspeak!