Thank You, President Bush

[mrsnacks]

famous gandalf : Well how about China ? Or Russia ?? Or N. Korea ??? Why haven't the Bush's dealt with these abusive regimes ??? Why did the US encourage Sadam to invade Kuwait ?? Documentation of that is available at infowars.com

This war was planned well before 9 11. and why no WMD so far. ?? Powell says we will find the WMD no matter what .

I am critical of the US policies. It seems christians in general have let blindness set in when it comes to the political scene. You talk of Bush himself as if he were Christ. You believe everything you hear on CNN or Fox as gospel truth.

The questions reporters asked before those press conferences you see on the tube are staged. what I mean is all questions must be approved ahead of time . So much for freedom of speech. My dad was in Vietnam and it is a known fact the US used chemical warfare there. Why hasn't any reporter asked the Pres or Powell ---"Didn't the US supply Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in it's war with Iran ?? Where was our concern then ?? How about Bush's business and oil deals with Bin Laden ?? No one seems to ask these questions at these conferences.

This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition. What about the recent demonstrations in Iraq demanding the Americans go home ?? The US has it's propaganda also ?? Wake up !!!

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by mrsnacks
famous gandalf : Well how about China ? Or Russia ?? Or N. Korea ??? Why haven't the Bush's dealt with these abusive regimes ???

Well, the Koreans appear to be pushing forward in line to be next.

This war was planned well before 9 11. and why no WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) so far. ?? Powell says we will find the WMD no matter what .

Many of the officers who have been imprisoned or detained have testified that they began to ship the WMD to Syria.[/QUOTE]Maybe they'll be in line just after Korea.

I am critical of the US policies.

NOOOOO. What makes you say that?

It seems christians in general have let blindness set in when it comes to the political scene. You talk of Bush himself as if he were Christ.

I see things pretty clearly, on all sides of the issues I concern myself with. I don't think politics is something people should be ignorant of. I believe that the whole spectrum of Americans are lax when it comes to current events and political stance. I believe that is the reason (one of the biggest ones) that this country is going to hell in a handbasket. Too few people standing up for what is right and squelching the voices of evil-doers, all over the world.

You believe everything you hear on CNN or Fox as gospel truth.

I know you do; but what do I do?

The questions reporters asked before those press conferences you see on the tube are staged.

You're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you?

My dad was in Vietnam and it is a known fact the US used chemical warfare there.

How come the United States Government doesn't know about this? Why has it never been proven? Did they just have the soldiers deliver these weapons, and then kill them? Where is the 'smoking gun?'

Why hasn't any reporter asked the Pres or Powell ---"Didn't the US supply Iraq with chemical and biological weapons in it's war with Iran ??

Because to be a reporter, you have to have a certain amount of common sense.

Where was our concern then ??

UM, could it be that Bush was not President at that time?

How about Bush's business and oil deals with Bin Laden ?? No one seems to ask these questions at these conferences.

Maybe because these things are yesterday's news; duhh.

This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition.

Thank God we decided to free them, after we ended the regime of a merciless dictator (original intention). Should we start beating them, and gassing them; which is what Saddam was doing, before we liberated them.

What about the recent demonstrations in Iraq demanding the Americans go home ??

Now, you don't really believe that the majority of Iraqi's want the US out of their country because you saw a few radicals protesting while you were religiously watching CNN and Fox, do you?

The US has it's propaganda also ??

As does every country.

Wake up !!!

Yawn, ah... uh... uhmmm... what time is it?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by mrsnacks
This war I believe has nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. That's just a recent addition.

But now that they are free...... is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[mrsnacks]

famous gandalf :yesterdays news duh ? That's your response??

I'm beginning to think that the best thing for me to do in this debate is to withdraw. Christians generally support the war effort. Everyone really does, pro or con, for our tax dollars are going to pay for this war.

I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who produces talk radio shows . She is a christian and works in the secular field of radio.She could never be involved in christian radio because of her criticism of US policies and that she isn't a dyed in the wool Republican. I guess according to most christians the Repubican party is God's party. It doesn't matter who is in the White House everything is basically big government as usual as far as I see. I don't see any significant changes. The powers that be own both parties. We are made to think we have a choice . My friend is not a democrat either but involved in the Liberatarian party.

So back to my point --you have Christians that believe it is a just war and a few that believe it isn't.

I think you have made up your mind to believe what you want to believe. You talk of the evils of the Sadam regime and if what I have seen and heard is true then does the US have a right to invade another country when it is obvious that they pose no threat militarily? Are we fighting Israel's war ??

You say Syria or N Korea's next. Why ??? No one has the right to have WMD except us ??? That seems pretty arrogant. Believe me i don't think the weapons should be around in the first place but they are. And we used the A bombs on Japan on a civilian population. But Gandalf would say that's old news . Why is China allowed to have and develop these weapons ??? Why Russia ?? You talk of the atrocities committed by Sadam but compare it to the atrocities in China ,Vietnam , Cambodia and Russia.

My point is that you have made up your mind already and no one can talk you out of your total loyalty to this country and it's policies .You can continue in your choosing to be blind .

I think it's best for me to just back out of this forum. be careful that Bush doesn't replace the Lord as Lord in your life. You talk of Bush like he is Christ. Have you accepted Bush into your life ?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Personally I am not a "Bush fanatic", in fact I don't care for either party (The are both far too left wing for me).

Yet I support this war effort and I think in this case Bush did a marvelous job in his strategy.

One less wacky "Hitler-esk" dictator in the world is a good thing.

As is removing a regime that murdered and tortured millions of people.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by mrsnacks I talked to a friend of mine yesterday who produces talk radio shows . She is a christian and works in the secular field of radio.She could never be involved in christian radio because of her criticism of US policies and that she isn't a dyed in the wool Republican.

This problem is one of the epidemics of the church, though certainly not the worst. It is the believer who is afraid to stand up to 'authority,' and do the things their conscience dictates. Why doesn't she try to do something about this obvious flaw she sees in the Body of Christ? That is why we aren't growing, because we aren't taking responsiblity. Another pet peeve of mine, is people who talk about 'so-and-so' who does this sin and that sin; and their life is one of the most sinful in the church. Another is the glutton-precher, saying, "If you sin, you aren't a child of God." My all-time least favorite is the one that says, "All you Christians..." or "All you liberals..." which is just another way of fomenting hatred.

I'm sorry Mr. Snacks, I just got done with a really long post to NuMessJew, and Lion King is about to start, and I promised my daughter; maybe next time I'll be able to give you more of my thoughts. Hope you understand. Anna is three years old. She is my youngest of five. :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

fg7 - make sure you properly bracket your code...

[command] variable [/command]

 

[mrsnacks]

Gandalf 7 : Are you talking about taking a stand for truth or for Christ. What i mean is that we have to use wisdom. I pick my battles and I'm sure you do to.

My friend along with myself have tried to inform members of the church on issues. But we have found many christians that stick their head in the sand only wanting to hear what they want to hear. They are not open .

I must admit I have done that in the past , but I have always prayerfully tried to be open to another point of view. Mine may be wrong . Aren't we supposed to test all things ??

I once held to the futurist view for 30 years following Lindsey, impe, Ice, LaHaye, and the rest of the self proclaimed prophecy experts. I took an apologetic class under the late Bahnsen and he started in on eschatology and shared why he believed that the Great Tribulation was a past event etc. I immediately closed my mind to what he was saying. I walked away convinced that Bahnsen had philosophy and apologetics down pat but he is way off on eschatology. I was convinced that we were living in the end times and the antichrist would appear "shortly."Strange that "shortly" seems to never arrive.

It was not until I read "Last Days Madness " and with the help of Dee Dee and others that I finally tested my futurist dispensational views. I was along with my wife became orthodox preterists. That was a year ago.

The point is that I wasn't ready to make that change years ago in Bahnsen's class. I think we all seem to have our blind spots.

And that brings me to this subject. This friend of mine who is a historian and very brilliant lady turned me on to "Tragedy and Hope " many years ago.How many christians have read that book ??? You are lucky to have 2 per thousand. We had long discussions about history and the political scene. Believe me it was mind shattering to hear another view which was supported by a lot of documentation and facts. It was depressing to me to hear that our government and what is taught in schools were lies.

I have taken stands and found out that I have to pick my battles and sometimes keep my mouth shut. I have been called anti-semitic , a heretic, an unbeliever, and a troublemaker because my views aren't those of the mainstream church.


Knight : It is a good thing that Sadam is outta there. But it isn't good thing that our government isn't being upfront and honest to the American people and lying out there elbows about why we are in Iraq.

You say you are not a Bush fanatic ?? What do you mean by that and why ??

It's about control, power, oil, and a new world order. It's that simple.

 

[Sealeaf]

If "Christian" has come to mean the same thing as "conservative" then Christianity is in trouble because one thing Jesus was not was a conservtive. He was a radicle revolutionary.

 

[aikido7]

Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded--it is a relationship between equals. Only then when we know our own darkness well can we be present with darkenss of others. Compassion becomes real when we recognize our shared humanity.

Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

I beleive all religions begin with the cry "Help."

 

[Aimiel]

Mrsnacks,

Mrsnacks,

Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life," so I believe that when we take a stand for Truth, it is Him we are standing for. That would include standing against 'believers' within the Body of Christ that try to supress someone's point of view, simply because it doesn't agree with theirs. Now, if someone won't endure sound doctrine, they have a problem with their relationship with God. He knows how to take care of His own, and how to let them know when they are talking to a stranger.

I, too, have found many Christians who stick their heads in the sand regarding anything that relates to their own sin, but they are poor examples of Christ. I have known many who are responsible, responsive and very dynamic. I pray that I might become as mature as many that I know, one day.

I believe that we are to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The Sword of the Spirit is described as a double-eged sword for a reason, the Word not only has the ability to divide asunder between the soul and the spirit of the people who the Word is spoken to, but the person speaking has to watch very carefully how he uses his skill in the use of the Word, because the sword is very sharp on that back side, and will cut him, if he is not careful. We often learn deep things about ourselves when ministering to others because of this. His Word is Life and it is Spirit. I remember, years ago, hearing about a preacher who was parroting Oral Roberts. He had memorized some of his sermons, and was going around with a tent and bilking people out of money. Well, one day he listened to one of his own sermons as he recanted it from memory, and ended up getting saved. The Word works. I have seen God use some very unlikely persons to share the Gospel. As far as testing all things, well, I let the Word do that. I have yet to be led astray, and have always been led by Him. He said He would never leave me or forsake me. I'm going to listen to Him.

As far as eschatology, I again defer to the Ancient of Days. He knows the end from the beginning. His Judgement is what the Christian should be praying for, not the appearance of some demon-posessed world dictator. I am not very eloquent, so I won't try to outline my 'doctrine,' but if you would like to read a statement of beliefs with which I fully agree, you can look here. I believe that the average Christian spends less than one hour a year reading his Bible. I believe that if there is any failure in the life of a Christian, it is because of a failure on their part to study and to pray. God is not a failure, and He is conforming us to the Image of His Dear Son.

How many Christians have read, "The Final Conflict," by Rick Joyner? The revelations that are in that book, I believe, are exactly like what Jesus did, after His ressurrection, they open the Scriptures. Too many Christians are willing to settle for 'business as usual,' and are all too willing to say, "...Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." -- II Peter 3:4 This is too much in agreement with the world, as far as I am concerned. I believe that Jesus' presence stirs things up, which is why many wanted to put Him to death; the demons in them were infuriated. We should have the same reaction, wherever we go. I believe that it is the job of the Christian to bring the Gospel to the whole world. When we encounter another Christian, it should be to encourage, build up and edify. When we encounter someone who is lost, we should give them what they need to hear, not what their itching ears tell them they want.

I hope you continue to stick to your guns, and defend your point of view. You were designed by your Creator to be unique. You are the only person who can be you. If someone else were to apply for the job, not only should they find that you are being you better than anyone else ever could, but that you are so different and unique, that there are qualities about you that they see, and begin to emulate. Imitation is not the greatest form of flattery, it is how we grow, as a race. Humans are unique in this, but I digress. I think you get my point. I told you I was not very good with words. As far as mainstream churches go, I don't know of very many that have 75% of what they believe or do approved of by the Lord. The ones that people call 'mainstream,' are sometimes the most dangerous.

I don't think President Bush is 100% correct. I have to give him credit for his ability (unlike many other 'professing Christian' presidents) to share his faith. I believe that he is a Christian, and that he prays for this nation. That does not make him right, or perfect; but I do thank God for His divine appointment. He is the One who lifts up one and puts down another. I also don't believe all the left-wing mumbo-jumbo about this being about oil or about Israel. I believe that the motives are what the President said they are, ousting a cruel dictator, with designs of ruling all Islam.

I also don't believe that President Bush had designs on being as powerful throughout the Middle East as he has now become. I have seen too much of him to know how power-hungry he is not. Did that come out right? I don't think that someone looks for more responsiblity, if they are intelligent, they look for ways to delegate authority. I believe this president is one of the best delegators we have had in our land's highest office. That is a very good thing.

 

[aikido7]

I certainly don't beleive we deserved what happened to us on September 11th, nor do we deserve the sort of governments we have had over the last 40 years. But our governments have brought this upon us by their actions all over the world. Americans have no idea of the extent of our government's mischief. We are not told about these things or are told we attacked them because, say, Noriega is the center of all world drug traffic and we have to get rid of him, so we kill some Panamanians in the process. Actually we killed quite a few. Then we kidnap Noreiga, their leader, a former CIA man who worked loyally for America, arrest him, try him in an American court that has no jurisdiction over him and lock him up. And no one knows why.

Saddam and the Afghans had nothing to do with 9-11, but Saudi Arabia did. It seems like Osama was involved, but we don't really know. Our commanding general was asked how long it was going to take to find bin Laden and he looked surprised and said "Well, that's not why we are here." Oh no? So what was it about? The Taliban were bad people and they put burlap sacks on women's heads and Bush cares about women's rights?

We had planned to occupy Afghanistan in October and someone launched a premptive strike against us. They knew we were coming and wanted to throw us off guard.

I think we went to Afganistan not to get Osama and wreak vengence but because the Taliban--who we had installed during the Russian occupation and was getting too flaky--and Unocal (the California consortium) had made a deal with the Taliban to get a pipeline to the Caspian, the richest oil reserve on the planet. So if we could get oil by pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan to Karachi to ship it off to China, whichever big coumpany could cash into it would make a fortune. Any bit of study will show you that all these companies go back to Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or someone else in the oil and gas junta which--along with the Pentagon, governs a large part of our foreign policy.

And now our government is busy re-writing the history of the Iraqi war. They have weapons of mass destruction. Oh--they destroyed them all before we attacked. No wonder we don't want a neutral third party like the UN in Iraq to find out. If we're in charge of looking, I am sure we will "find" something--if only a paper trail. Saddam was responsible for 9-11, even though our own CIA said "no way." If you say anything against our government, your rights will be bulldozed and smashed like plastic CDs.

As in biblical scholarship, we are not idiots. But we have been cowed. Cowed by media and church disinformation, a skewed view of reality and atrocious taxes that subsidize this perpetual war machine. And don't get me started on how we happily pass along Scriptural nonsense in the guise of truth....

 

[mrsnacks]

Aikido & : I couldn't have said it any better. thanks for your input. I was beginning to withdraw from any more dialogue on this subject being that most christians are so gullible to believe that Jesus didn't have to die for the sins of Cheney , Bush , and our government leaders because they are righteous and sinless. I guess people blind themselves from the thought that our government hasn't been corrupted.

I wonder why bids were not allowed from other companies in the rebuilding of Iraq ?? the government selected and gave out the contracts and of course Cheney and Bush and other government leaders benefit. we blow the place up and then rebuild it with our tax dollars.

I love what this country originally stood for. It appears we have made --power, greed , and lying, and money our gods.

Let me ask you. Where is the money coming from to pay for this war with the supposed tax cuts ????? The media ain't talking. I'm just concerned.

Our Lord Jesus is our Savior. May we never forget that.

 

[boundtoforget]

Judgement against American arrogance and imperialism

Judgement against American arrogance and imperialism

According to the Webmaster's quote:

Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed. - Proverbs 27:5

So here goes ...

Bush, Blair, et al. attempted to justify this war based on various and shifting pretexts:

First we had 'Saddam is a threat'.

- to whom, and when?

The we had 'weapons of mass destruction'

None have been found.

Then we had 'Saddam harbours terrorists'

No evidence has been provided, of a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Saddam always struck me as too much of a secular control freak to tolerate Al Qaeda in the areas of Iraq which he controlled.

Then we had 'imposing democracy on Iraq'

But Rumsfeld now says that he will not permit an Islamic theocratic state, whether or not it is democratically chosen.

Furthermore, the USA has, through its arrogance, alienated the worldwide support which it had for the 'war on terror' after spetember 11th 2001. There was widespread support for the war on Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. However, there was far less support for the war on Iraq.

The one benefit (removal of a dictatorship) was never really quoted as a pretext, and equally well applies to several other countries which remain friends of the USA.

On another talkboard, I started a discussion entitled 'shame and disgrace on the USA'.

On this talkboard, I ask, how will this imperialist American arrogance be judged by God? I have just been reading Isaiah 1-5, and was struck by God's judgement against the Israelite people (Judah) for their pride and arrogance. It was amazing to me how many of the Isaiah judgements had a direct parallel with judgements against the war on Iraq.

I also ask; how will Christians in Iraq now be treated? Despite his many faults, Saddam at least was not an Islamic fundamentalist, and Christians were at least treated relatively well.

How will God judge the USA and its lackey the UK?

God forgive America!!

 

[mrsnacks]

I heard on the news today that the reporter was stating that 80% of Americans were not concerned if any WMD were not to be found in Iraq. The 80% of Americans would still feel that the US was justified in going in.

Amazing. Even if the US doesn't find and WMD, it doesn't matter.

 

[Aimiel]

Are You Following the Same War?

Are You Following the Same War?

Why do you think that the majority of the army of Iraq simply laid down their weapons and went home? They found out that Saddam had been killed, and the leadership had scattered. Their WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before the war even began.

 

[boundtoforget]

Gandalf,

If the 'WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before even the war began', then there was no justification for this arrogant imperialistic war in the first place.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by boundtoforget
Gandalf,

If the 'WMD had been destroyed or shipped out of the country in secret, before even the war began', then there was no justification for this arrogant imperialistic war in the first place.

Yea good point.... let's put those young boys back in Iraqi torture chambers and reinstate the "rape squads" of Saddam.

 

[mrsnacks]

Knight : You say good point ? I say it is not a good point if there is no truth to that. Obviously you have made up your mind . It's like I mentioned the majority of the American people could care less if the US did not find any WMD . Sadam is evil and should be removed whether he had the weapons or not. Whether the weapons came from the US is irrelevant. The media can lie to the American people but that's not the issue. The issue is whatever we do is the right thing and God is on our side.
White makes right.

 

[aikido7]

There never were any "weapons of mass destruction," at least not in the amount claimed or in any way actually deliverable by the Iraqi regime. The reason for the invasion was to solidify U.S. hegenomy, and that decision was made under Bush, Sr. The paper trail is there in black and white, but it takes more than a superficial glance from the sports page to the front page to find that out.

"We support the Iraqi people in forming their own government--a democratic government," says Donald Rumsfeld, laughingly unaware of his own agenda peeking out from the tell-tale word "democracy." They'd better pick their form of government and it had better be one we approve of. And it better not be a democracy like France or Germany where a majority of its citizens agree with what its government is doing!

Like bible study is actually "studying the Bible," so, too, is politcal acumen actually "doing one's homework," paying attention to history and using common sense.

Much of the previous anti-war sentiment came from ordinary Americans who believed President Bush when he claimed Iraq had a massive nuclear and biological weapons program. They felt rightfully hestitant to commit American lives to what would perhaps turn out to be a comflagration and a holocaust on the desert sands.

Now I see the administration is withdrawing our forces from Saudi Arabia. Since our presence there was what motivated Osama bin Laden (remember him?) to carry out 9-11, this new bit of information sure looks like he finally got what he wanted by killing 3,000 of our innocent civilians. What's up with that?

Just like the church sees Jesus and Christianity through the lens of John's gospel, the American people see politics through Bush and Cheney's gospel. Both gospels are far removed from the original reality and both have little or no sense of real history.