aikido7....
Thank You, President Bush
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I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge the teachings of Jesus here. Please read my post again. I'm not talking about Paul, who gives us almost no information about the early Jesus other than he was "born of a woman."
(By the way, I was just wondering how our Founding Fathers got us out from underneath Britian's boot-heel if they really took Paul's "obedience to government authority" verses seriously? Remember, Knight, he was writing to the Roman church in the early part of the first century.)
So..... you do not believe that Paul's writings were directly inspired by Jesus, as Paul so clearly states?
Was Paul lying when he said...
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Hmmm--theology and Christian history I will be glad to discuss with you later.
First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?
Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise? The first thread by "webmaster--administrator" read:
"Mr. President, we thank you for your leadership in the war against terror, in the war in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. Thank you for seeing the connection between our own self-defense and the liberation of more than 40 million Iraqis and Afghans. And thank you that our soldiers protected innocent life in enemy territory more so than did the opposing governments."
My response was:
What prevents most Christians from honoring the teachings of Jesus?
They seem pretty unambigous to me. And his parables seem to turn what we depend on and call "reality" upside down.
What would the Kingdoms of this world be like if God was the true ruler of the empire and Ceasar, Saddam and Bush were at the bottom? What will happen to the dogma of the pulpit when we begin to let Jesus finally speak for himself?
Most church-goers seem to want to tell others in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe and believe and berate others who do not agree with their fourth century formulations. What a great job it must be: bow down to a Nicean Creed which says NOTHING about Jesus' teachings and get up the next morning without having to change one whit about their own behavior.
No wonder some wag of an atheist once said that the best argument against Christianity is a Christian!
Jesus now, Jesus then, Jesus forever....
Before we start a textual examination of Paul's authentic letters and a discussion about his theology, I am first curious to know what is irrelevant in my text posting to "the topic at hand."?
First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?
Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise? The first thread by "webmaster--administrator" read:
"Mr. President, we thank you for your leadership in the war against terror, in the war in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. Thank you for seeing the connection between our own self-defense and the liberation of more than 40 million Iraqis and Afghans. And thank you that our soldiers protected innocent life in enemy territory more so than did the opposing governments."
My response was:
What prevents most Christians from honoring the teachings of Jesus?
They seem pretty unambigous to me. And his parables seem to turn what we depend on and call "reality" upside down.
What would the Kingdoms of this world be like if God was the true ruler of the empire and Ceasar, Saddam and Bush were at the bottom? What will happen to the dogma of the pulpit when we begin to let Jesus finally speak for himself?
Most church-goers seem to want to tell others in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe and believe and berate others who do not agree with their fourth century formulations. What a great job it must be: bow down to a Nicean Creed which says NOTHING about Jesus' teachings and get up the next morning without having to change one whit about their own behavior.
No wonder some wag of an atheist once said that the best argument against Christianity is a Christian!
Jesus now, Jesus then, Jesus forever....
Before we start a textual examination of Paul's authentic letters and a discussion about his theology, I am first curious to know what is irrelevant in my text posting to "the topic at hand."?
aikido7, I figured you would run from that last question. 
Re: We have already lost the peace
Re: We have already lost the peace
This is what happens when you watch the BBC folks.
Read and study the indoctrination by the European media.
As for what Covenanter says (hmmmm...my church comes from a line of Scot Covenanters myself), the problems discussed have largely been resolved.
Over in England, (as well as ABC and CNN here in the states...Fox and MSNBC are doing a great job of reporting fairly), news on the war is all negative all the time. No good news is reported. You wouldn't have known that Iraqis welcomed us on the road to Baghdad watching that piece of Pravda crap called the BBC.
Roy
Re: We have already lost the peace
This is what happens when you watch the BBC folks.
Read and study the indoctrination by the European media.
As for what Covenanter says (hmmmm...my church comes from a line of Scot Covenanters myself), the problems discussed have largely been resolved.
Over in England, (as well as ABC and CNN here in the states...Fox and MSNBC are doing a great job of reporting fairly), news on the war is all negative all the time. No good news is reported. You wouldn't have known that Iraqis welcomed us on the road to Baghdad watching that piece of Pravda crap called the BBC.
Roy
Knight--
Hmmm--theology and Christian history I will be glad to discuss with you later.
First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?
Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise?
I will run toward your questions after you stop running away from my questions repeated above. Show me how my first post was not relevant to the topic. YOU brought it up first; explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old and then we can deal with your second question on Pauline theology. I'm not running from anything--but I can only focus on one thing at a time here. This is not a "free for all" but a reasoned and measured discussion on a message board.
Does that make sense to you?
Hmmm--theology and Christian history I will be glad to discuss with you later.
First, though, how--specifically--was my first post in this thread not relevant?
Was it off-topic? If so, why?
If it was on-topic, did you disagree with its premise?
I will run toward your questions after you stop running away from my questions repeated above. Show me how my first post was not relevant to the topic. YOU brought it up first; explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old and then we can deal with your second question on Pauline theology. I'm not running from anything--but I can only focus on one thing at a time here. This is not a "free for all" but a reasoned and measured discussion on a message board.
Does that make sense to you?
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Covenanter wrote...
Covenanter wrote...
"THe declared objective of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein & liberate the Iraqi people."
--The objective is being met.
"We were given to expect a short & positive campaign, and a welcome by the people."
--That is exactly what has happened.
"Instead we have a war of attrition,"
--2 weeks?
" disruption of vital supplies,"
--Uhhh...it is a war. Perhaps you are unaware of the supplies that the 'good guys' are distributing among the Iraqi people. We have buiolt a water line and have been distributing water. We have been distributing food of all sorts. To say otherwise is deliberate, malicious disinformation.
" & extreme & ongoing suffering of the people we were trying to liberate."
--Uhhhh.....we are liberating them from 30 years of extreme and ongoing suffering. If you really cared about these people, you would be happy that Saddam is no longer in power to torture, kill, starve and terrorize them.
Covenanter wrote...
"THe declared objective of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein & liberate the Iraqi people."
--The objective is being met.
"We were given to expect a short & positive campaign, and a welcome by the people."
--That is exactly what has happened.
"Instead we have a war of attrition,"
--2 weeks?
" disruption of vital supplies,"
--Uhhh...it is a war. Perhaps you are unaware of the supplies that the 'good guys' are distributing among the Iraqi people. We have buiolt a water line and have been distributing water. We have been distributing food of all sorts. To say otherwise is deliberate, malicious disinformation.
" & extreme & ongoing suffering of the people we were trying to liberate."
--Uhhhh.....we are liberating them from 30 years of extreme and ongoing suffering. If you really cared about these people, you would be happy that Saddam is no longer in power to torture, kill, starve and terrorize them.
CincinnatiUU
New member
Dave, it's OK man, I love you...
Dave, it's OK man, I love you...
Dave,
The reality is that 'truth' and 'justice' have been coopted by many of our so-called born again buddies. Look, the hard fact is that most people who support Bush's war really have no idea what's going on. I have friends at the Pentagon...I have buddies who work in circles in D.C. If people only really knew...their hair would rise on end.
All I can say, is that if these idiots here really could move beyond 'their new truth and justice', resist listening to Sean Hannity for 5 minutes, and stop maligning God's name all to 'convince' hapless Americans this war is just we might actually have a constructive dialogue. Dave, these people are simply too 'Jim Jonesy' to listen. Before you know it, Bush will ask them to drink 'Kool-Aid with cyanide' in the name of 'truth and justice'. Willingly they will tip the cup back crying that Bush is the Messiah...hey it could happen.
Thinking people who competently disagree are out there. You won't find them here. I had a WONDERFUL. balanced conversation yesterday with a Republic Right Winger. Sweet man, bright fellow, and alot of excellent points. Guess what? He LISTENED AND CONCEDED POINTS I MADE AS WELL...he also is not foolish recognizing the government is a MUCH bigger thing than we know or think we know. He also knows about Theology Online...and well...we'll stop being mean.
Peace to the persecuted - Plato for the Blind,
UU
Dave, it's OK man, I love you...
Dave,
The reality is that 'truth' and 'justice' have been coopted by many of our so-called born again buddies. Look, the hard fact is that most people who support Bush's war really have no idea what's going on. I have friends at the Pentagon...I have buddies who work in circles in D.C. If people only really knew...their hair would rise on end.
All I can say, is that if these idiots here really could move beyond 'their new truth and justice', resist listening to Sean Hannity for 5 minutes, and stop maligning God's name all to 'convince' hapless Americans this war is just we might actually have a constructive dialogue. Dave, these people are simply too 'Jim Jonesy' to listen. Before you know it, Bush will ask them to drink 'Kool-Aid with cyanide' in the name of 'truth and justice'. Willingly they will tip the cup back crying that Bush is the Messiah...hey it could happen.
Thinking people who competently disagree are out there. You won't find them here. I had a WONDERFUL. balanced conversation yesterday with a Republic Right Winger. Sweet man, bright fellow, and alot of excellent points. Guess what? He LISTENED AND CONCEDED POINTS I MADE AS WELL...he also is not foolish recognizing the government is a MUCH bigger thing than we know or think we know. He also knows about Theology Online...and well...we'll stop being mean.
Peace to the persecuted - Plato for the Blind,
UU
johntheb51
New member
Things political/things spiritual
Things political/things spiritual
I don't think God will ever ban liberal christians from the kingdom.
Actually, he doesn't have to.....the end up excluding themselves.
Liberal ideas, for the most part, are a creed of self-centeredness.
When you love yourself and your own comfort and your preferences in life above any other, then you show your true self.
I was a war protesting, intellectualist snob during viet-nam, but when I became a christian, the spirit showed me the underpinnings of my supposed "LOVE" creed. I loved drugs, and free sex, and I certainly hated all authority (which, by the way, came from God).
My hatred of the war did not come from a love of all man-kind. It came from my lack of willingmess to participate in warefare. I took the plank from my own eye and was able to see that I was a hedonistic hypocrit. At the same time, it becasme obvious to me that most of my generation were the same. The love children of the '60's were the yuppies of the 80's and 90's. Still looking for all the benefits of being an american without having to take responsibility fo ANY of the sometimes painful responsibilities.
BTW.....if you liberal christians also adhere to a creed of "Gospel light", (all mercy and grace to claim in your oun behalf with not even a trace of repentance and sanctification), forget it. God is not mocked. What you're sowing, that shall you also reap.............
John the B '51
Things political/things spiritual
I don't think God will ever ban liberal christians from the kingdom.
Actually, he doesn't have to.....the end up excluding themselves.
Liberal ideas, for the most part, are a creed of self-centeredness.
When you love yourself and your own comfort and your preferences in life above any other, then you show your true self.
I was a war protesting, intellectualist snob during viet-nam, but when I became a christian, the spirit showed me the underpinnings of my supposed "LOVE" creed. I loved drugs, and free sex, and I certainly hated all authority (which, by the way, came from God).
My hatred of the war did not come from a love of all man-kind. It came from my lack of willingmess to participate in warefare. I took the plank from my own eye and was able to see that I was a hedonistic hypocrit. At the same time, it becasme obvious to me that most of my generation were the same. The love children of the '60's were the yuppies of the 80's and 90's. Still looking for all the benefits of being an american without having to take responsibility fo ANY of the sometimes painful responsibilities.
BTW.....if you liberal christians also adhere to a creed of "Gospel light", (all mercy and grace to claim in your oun behalf with not even a trace of repentance and sanctification), forget it. God is not mocked. What you're sowing, that shall you also reap.............
John the B '51
Mr. Cincinatti UU
I am happy to meet a brother of mine at this website of infidels. I agree that GW Bush is Satan and that Allah will exact retribution for his sinfull acts. I am happy to recruit you into the ranks of my elite martyrs and ask you to help me iliminate the evil empire of American conservatives. Although democrats are technically infidels, I will give them a special consideration and make them all honorary Muslims, starting with Tom Dashle and Nancy Pelosi [yummy, we do not get hot babes like her here in Baghdad. She doesn't even need to shave!].
Uhhh...where was I? Oh yes. Mr. UU, you will be gifted in heaven with at least 3 halfway decent looking, almost virgins [really, there are only so many virgins to go around and lately they have been working overtime with the large number of recently deceased Iraqi soldiers] if you will make your way to Baghdad, jump in a little white truck and ram an American tank. I realize that the odds seem to be in favor of the infidels, but Allah will be with you and you may actually put a small dent in the side of an M1 before they blow you to hell.....I mean heaven. You will be remembered forever as a great martyr and I will even promote you to General posthumously!
Allah be with you, my brother.
-Saddam
I am happy to meet a brother of mine at this website of infidels. I agree that GW Bush is Satan and that Allah will exact retribution for his sinfull acts. I am happy to recruit you into the ranks of my elite martyrs and ask you to help me iliminate the evil empire of American conservatives. Although democrats are technically infidels, I will give them a special consideration and make them all honorary Muslims, starting with Tom Dashle and Nancy Pelosi [yummy, we do not get hot babes like her here in Baghdad. She doesn't even need to shave!].
Uhhh...where was I? Oh yes. Mr. UU, you will be gifted in heaven with at least 3 halfway decent looking, almost virgins [really, there are only so many virgins to go around and lately they have been working overtime with the large number of recently deceased Iraqi soldiers] if you will make your way to Baghdad, jump in a little white truck and ram an American tank. I realize that the odds seem to be in favor of the infidels, but Allah will be with you and you may actually put a small dent in the side of an M1 before they blow you to hell.....I mean heaven. You will be remembered forever as a great martyr and I will even promote you to General posthumously!
Allah be with you, my brother.
-Saddam
CincinnatiUU
New member
Case in Point
Case in Point
Again, I stand affirmed based on the responses thus far. Take heart Dave.
You see, until people can actually engage in thoughtful debate and stop this "God ordained War" nonsense, we are in for a lot more trouble.
Oh well...I am thankful for those of you who have open enough minds to challenge the Bob Enyarts, Pat Robertsons, and Jerry Falwells.
Peace be with all of you as you continue your religious fanaticism.
It's so chique these days...I bet some of you fanatics and ideologues rent some planes...same thing really...isn't it?
Who says I am free sex, pro-drugs, and have the hippie mentality? Major assumptions from ignorant folk. I really wonder if there will be an uprising of people in America who, after whining about how terrible the education system is (I am a product thankfully of hte public schools AND private education), folks can critically think. Ah BUT WAIT...standardized tests, conservative free market ideology and Jesus Christ will save the day.
We must be going in reverse...
Case in Point
Again, I stand affirmed based on the responses thus far. Take heart Dave.
You see, until people can actually engage in thoughtful debate and stop this "God ordained War" nonsense, we are in for a lot more trouble.
Oh well...I am thankful for those of you who have open enough minds to challenge the Bob Enyarts, Pat Robertsons, and Jerry Falwells.
Peace be with all of you as you continue your religious fanaticism.
It's so chique these days...I bet some of you fanatics and ideologues rent some planes...same thing really...isn't it?
Who says I am free sex, pro-drugs, and have the hippie mentality? Major assumptions from ignorant folk. I really wonder if there will be an uprising of people in America who, after whining about how terrible the education system is (I am a product thankfully of hte public schools AND private education), folks can critically think. Ah BUT WAIT...standardized tests, conservative free market ideology and Jesus Christ will save the day.
We must be going in reverse...
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Re: Case in Point
Re: Case in Point
You are continuing to expose your intellectual midgetism by comparing conservative beliefs about what the govt. should do to a religiously motivated individual jihad.
What exactly are the things that will "make your hairs stand on end."
Look, Bush is not God and some things he has done I am not thrilled with (signing CFR for one). But, unless you are privy to his intelligence briefings, I suggest you be quiet.
I am interested in what your Pentagon friends have to say, but if they are low level folks, what they say ultimately does not have any validity.
BTW, this war is ordained by God, as everything a govt. does is ordained by Him.
Roy
Re: Case in Point
You are continuing to expose your intellectual midgetism by comparing conservative beliefs about what the govt. should do to a religiously motivated individual jihad.
What exactly are the things that will "make your hairs stand on end."
Look, Bush is not God and some things he has done I am not thrilled with (signing CFR for one). But, unless you are privy to his intelligence briefings, I suggest you be quiet.
I am interested in what your Pentagon friends have to say, but if they are low level folks, what they say ultimately does not have any validity.
BTW, this war is ordained by God, as everything a govt. does is ordained by Him.
Roy
Mr. UU
I am anxiously awaiting your arrival in Baghdad. Please hurry, I am afraid that the infidels will soon be in control of the city and then I will be forced out of power. If that happens, there will be no more torturings, no more random executions, no more people forced to blow themselves up, no more people starving because the revenue from the oilfields, as well as the 'food for oil' program has been squandered by me and routed directly into my personal bank accounts. I will no longer be able to see my wonderful picture on every street corner. People will actually be able to set up a democratic government and vote on a President. Women may even be considered more than sub-human.
Please Mr.UU, I know you can help me retain my lethal grip over these dogs, I mean people. Gather up all your liberal freinds and come to Baghdad, it is beatiful this time of year. There is nothing quite so elegant as a suicide bombing under the green glow of burning buildings and allied missles exploding.
Allah speed, Mr. UU
-Saddam
-P.S. I may not be around when you get here.
I am anxiously awaiting your arrival in Baghdad. Please hurry, I am afraid that the infidels will soon be in control of the city and then I will be forced out of power. If that happens, there will be no more torturings, no more random executions, no more people forced to blow themselves up, no more people starving because the revenue from the oilfields, as well as the 'food for oil' program has been squandered by me and routed directly into my personal bank accounts. I will no longer be able to see my wonderful picture on every street corner. People will actually be able to set up a democratic government and vote on a President. Women may even be considered more than sub-human.
Please Mr.UU, I know you can help me retain my lethal grip over these dogs, I mean people. Gather up all your liberal freinds and come to Baghdad, it is beatiful this time of year. There is nothing quite so elegant as a suicide bombing under the green glow of burning buildings and allied missles exploding.
Allah speed, Mr. UU
-Saddam
-P.S. I may not be around when you get here.
Calvinist
New member
Again I say if you all feel so strongly about the injustice of abortion and draw a parallel between what we are doing in Iraq, then why not put your LIFE where you mouth is?
No?
You won't because you are either cowards or you really don't care as much as you want other people to believe you do.
No?
You won't because you are either cowards or you really don't care as much as you want other people to believe you do.
N
naima
Guest
Re: For FourAMPray-er
Re: For FourAMPray-er
Re: For FourAMPray-er
defending what?
defending what?
I agree with the second half of the letter, but not the first. The truth be known we should not retaliate! God wants us to be nice! We kill little babies and allow deviant behavior so God let 9-11 happen. If your dad spanks you, you shouldn,t hit him back! If God wants saddam to strike us, then it will happen. We deserve it. Bush is making god angry on both accounts by killing gods children; in the womb ande in Iraq, Afganizstan etc..
Who said thank God for independance? we are all dependants and slaves to God.
defending what?
I agree with the second half of the letter, but not the first. The truth be known we should not retaliate! God wants us to be nice! We kill little babies and allow deviant behavior so God let 9-11 happen. If your dad spanks you, you shouldn,t hit him back! If God wants saddam to strike us, then it will happen. We deserve it. Bush is making god angry on both accounts by killing gods children; in the womb ande in Iraq, Afganizstan etc..
Who said thank God for independance? we are all dependants and slaves to God.