Thank You, President Bush
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The Rock of Peace
The Rock of Peace
They that take the sword will perish with their sword and their doublespeak.
Preventive war, preemptive war, offensive war and war on suspicion undermine international law and the UN Charter. The UN was founded to overcome the scourge of war. The UN Charter limits the right of self-defense to an armed attack of a state.
May we become a people of humility and interdependence! May we clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside! May we recognize that our history is full of invasions and occupations and that special corporate interests often thwart the ideal of democracy! May we strengthen international law with its two foundations of reparations and self-determination!
Articles on human rights, economic ethics, liberation theology, the Jewish-Christian dialogue and trinitarian theology are available on www.mbtranslations.com.
May we build our lives on the rock of peace, not on the sand of imperial wars!
May we support our troops by bringing them home at once!
War and terrorism can only increase terrorism; nonviolence is stronger than violence. Jesus wanted truth to well up in persons. His method of indirect nonviolence calls us to an ethic of resistance and solidarity.
Dear friends, check out these two cartoons:
http://www.systemfehler.de/comix/usa.htm
http://www.portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=48400
The Rock of Peace
They that take the sword will perish with their sword and their doublespeak.
Preventive war, preemptive war, offensive war and war on suspicion undermine international law and the UN Charter. The UN was founded to overcome the scourge of war. The UN Charter limits the right of self-defense to an armed attack of a state.
May we become a people of humility and interdependence! May we clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside! May we recognize that our history is full of invasions and occupations and that special corporate interests often thwart the ideal of democracy! May we strengthen international law with its two foundations of reparations and self-determination!
Articles on human rights, economic ethics, liberation theology, the Jewish-Christian dialogue and trinitarian theology are available on www.mbtranslations.com.
May we build our lives on the rock of peace, not on the sand of imperial wars!
May we support our troops by bringing them home at once!
War and terrorism can only increase terrorism; nonviolence is stronger than violence. Jesus wanted truth to well up in persons. His method of indirect nonviolence calls us to an ethic of resistance and solidarity.
Dear friends, check out these two cartoons:
http://www.systemfehler.de/comix/usa.htm
http://www.portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=48400
Covenanter
New member
Down with Saddam Hussein!
Down with Saddam Hussein!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
This stage managed event took 90 minutes of BBC time, & replaced scheduled programmes. Who says BBC is a branch of Pravda ??
Down with Saddam Hussein!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
This stage managed event took 90 minutes of BBC time, & replaced scheduled programmes. Who says BBC is a branch of Pravda ??
4
4 A.M. Prayer
Guest
Re: Our God is God, He Raises up One, and Puts Down Another
Re: Our God is God, He Raises up One, and Puts Down Another
Trash? have you seen the children in Iraq? The innocent victims? OK the evil regime is wrong. But did anyone in the administration do their homework here?
I'll give everyone a 'barometer' of, shall we say, reasonble thinking here.
Thomas Friedman, NY Times. OK Liberal slant newspaper, BUT as with any world-wide acclaimed paper, they hire a wide variety of social and political views and Friedman is an opinion that demands attention! I'm not a computer geek, help me here. Friedman's comments during the entire war are right on the money. I would only ask that you read his commentary on the war. Can anyone pull up his 'links' or postings?
The guy IMO has his finger right on the pulse of what's going on in all this...
Re: Our God is God, He Raises up One, and Puts Down Another
Trash? have you seen the children in Iraq? The innocent victims? OK the evil regime is wrong. But did anyone in the administration do their homework here?
I'll give everyone a 'barometer' of, shall we say, reasonble thinking here.
Thomas Friedman, NY Times. OK Liberal slant newspaper, BUT as with any world-wide acclaimed paper, they hire a wide variety of social and political views and Friedman is an opinion that demands attention! I'm not a computer geek, help me here. Friedman's comments during the entire war are right on the money. I would only ask that you read his commentary on the war. Can anyone pull up his 'links' or postings?
The guy IMO has his finger right on the pulse of what's going on in all this...
Aimiel
Well-known member
War is Not Peace
War is Not Peace
The fact that civilians die in any war is always lamented, unless God directs otherwise. We did our best to avoid collateral damage. If you feel otherwise, then you do. I have not seen any evidence that we attacked too many people, indiscriminantly. When you take down a tree, often tearing up the roots causes some favored plants to die. Now, if he could have, I am sure President Bush would have just sent a single emissary to Iraq, who would have then placed Saddam under arrest, and then this whole campaign could have been avoided. The guy parked his troops in people's homes, placed tanks in between residences, and used the city as a 'shield.' How do you think we could have won this war, losing less than 150 men, against an army of the size of Saddam's any better? Would you have waged the war, if you were President? What would you do about 9/11? I wonder if you have ever been in the military? I doubt it. No, you don't even seem to have an opinion, because you are afraid you might fall down trying to defend it. You defer to someone else to do your defense. Well, our President did the same, he allowed the military to have their 'head,' in this war, and I think he has done better than any other country's leader, in the past (with the exception of maybe FDR, but in that case the US and UK's leadership roles were reversed).
War is Not Peace
The fact that civilians die in any war is always lamented, unless God directs otherwise. We did our best to avoid collateral damage. If you feel otherwise, then you do. I have not seen any evidence that we attacked too many people, indiscriminantly. When you take down a tree, often tearing up the roots causes some favored plants to die. Now, if he could have, I am sure President Bush would have just sent a single emissary to Iraq, who would have then placed Saddam under arrest, and then this whole campaign could have been avoided. The guy parked his troops in people's homes, placed tanks in between residences, and used the city as a 'shield.' How do you think we could have won this war, losing less than 150 men, against an army of the size of Saddam's any better? Would you have waged the war, if you were President? What would you do about 9/11? I wonder if you have ever been in the military? I doubt it. No, you don't even seem to have an opinion, because you are afraid you might fall down trying to defend it. You defer to someone else to do your defense. Well, our President did the same, he allowed the military to have their 'head,' in this war, and I think he has done better than any other country's leader, in the past (with the exception of maybe FDR, but in that case the US and UK's leadership roles were reversed).
Dear famous Gandalf7,
I am curious as to your answer to this question:
If 1.You have been assured that God has told you, or that 2.Your "God-given" common sense directs you or even if 3.A "New Age" cosmic universe has assured you:
that if you would only kill the innocent baby you hold in your arms, then--take your pick--
WORLD PEACE WOULD BEGIN
POVERTY AND SUFFERING WOULD CEASE and / or
THE WORLD AND ITS PEOPLE WOULD BE FREE OF EVIL AND TYRANNY FOREVER
...would you do it?
That's always been war, famous Gandalf7, and those have always been the reasons. Can you buck the secular system and love your enemies?
I am curious as to your answer to this question:
If 1.You have been assured that God has told you, or that 2.Your "God-given" common sense directs you or even if 3.A "New Age" cosmic universe has assured you:
that if you would only kill the innocent baby you hold in your arms, then--take your pick--
WORLD PEACE WOULD BEGIN
POVERTY AND SUFFERING WOULD CEASE and / or
THE WORLD AND ITS PEOPLE WOULD BE FREE OF EVIL AND TYRANNY FOREVER
...would you do it?
That's always been war, famous Gandalf7, and those have always been the reasons. Can you buck the secular system and love your enemies?
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BIG LIES
BIG LIES
I guess I'll stir the pot a little more for Bob Enyart and this website by laying out some thoughts about Iraq, holy war and religious fundamentalism.
This war, like Ceasar's Gallia, seems to have three parts--the political decision to go to war, the military action and its religious undertones. The debate over the politics started months ago and will continue long after Baghdad is calm. Every one of us needs to take part in this debate. This is a democracy. Our opinions matter.
Whatever our politics, though, the American men and women in the Middle East deserve our respect and our support. But let me be clear: disagreeing with the war is not a betrayal of our troops, any more than agreeing with the war serves them. We can certainly support the firefighters without supporting fire.
What bugs me is the sanctimonious religiousity underlying the war. There is too much talk of "holy war." Iraqis pledge jihad. Too many Muslims and Christians see this war as Christianity versus Islam. George Bush and other short-sighted and shallow politicos talk in absolutist terms, as if the conflict was a moral contest between two cosmic forces: good and evil, truth and lie, God and Satan. That is a terrifying lens to view any conflict. Holy wars don't end and holy warriors don't know when to stop. There are no treaties for resolving absolutes. Holy warriors cannot back down--even if no one else is left standing.
How did political strategy get so moralistic and absolutist? I think it is to be found in the past 40 years of surging fundamentalism, both in America and the Middle East. The similarities, patterns and parallels between Iran and the Bible Belt are sobering. This absolutist view of things has grown from fringe to prevalent, from intellectual laughingstock to political potency. This has been an era of "Big Lies." One lie has been the deliberate distortion of Scripture (paralleled in Islam by the ignorant distortion of the Koran). Through sarcasm, intimidation, faux scholarship (and sheer volume), Christians have grabbed the field of Biblical inquiry and committed idolatry by constructing a God who suits their politics. Interestingly, this God has little to do with the God known by Abraham or called "Father" by Jesus of Nazareth.
Another troubling lie has been dualism, a division of reality into polar opposites, competing absolutes, which cannot coexist. This country survived its first 400 years by restraining Puritan rigidity and Catholic exclusivity, by declaring that this New World would not repeat Europe's terror of holy wars.
Fundamentalism, however, cannot tolerate tolerance.
The third lie has been polticization. Fundamentalists can bring in the votes--the so-called "Moral Majority" was neither moral or a majority, but its claims scared many politicians. Serious debate on moral issues became impossible. Political stances were labeled "God's will."
Most believers, meanwhile, have stayed largely silent, focusing on internal matters (perfecting liturgy and redressing gender inequalities). They have been intellectually lax and politically naiive, and are just as ignorant as their fundamentalist brothers and sisters of biblical scholarship. The status quo has allowed fundamentalism to shape an entire generation's comprehension of Scripture. They have likewise ignored Jesus' parables and aphorisms, failing to translate them into the living water for the parched postmodern desert we all find ourselves wandering across. One major disheartening thing has been the dismissal of fundamentalists as silly and lower class. This labeling keeps many from understanding the fundamentalist mindset as--among many things-- a natural human reaction to complex world events.
But the Big Lies remain. And if Big Lies eventually come to be seen as truth, then "the ruler of this world," as Jesus named him, will have a field day.
BIG LIES
I guess I'll stir the pot a little more for Bob Enyart and this website by laying out some thoughts about Iraq, holy war and religious fundamentalism.
This war, like Ceasar's Gallia, seems to have three parts--the political decision to go to war, the military action and its religious undertones. The debate over the politics started months ago and will continue long after Baghdad is calm. Every one of us needs to take part in this debate. This is a democracy. Our opinions matter.
Whatever our politics, though, the American men and women in the Middle East deserve our respect and our support. But let me be clear: disagreeing with the war is not a betrayal of our troops, any more than agreeing with the war serves them. We can certainly support the firefighters without supporting fire.
What bugs me is the sanctimonious religiousity underlying the war. There is too much talk of "holy war." Iraqis pledge jihad. Too many Muslims and Christians see this war as Christianity versus Islam. George Bush and other short-sighted and shallow politicos talk in absolutist terms, as if the conflict was a moral contest between two cosmic forces: good and evil, truth and lie, God and Satan. That is a terrifying lens to view any conflict. Holy wars don't end and holy warriors don't know when to stop. There are no treaties for resolving absolutes. Holy warriors cannot back down--even if no one else is left standing.
How did political strategy get so moralistic and absolutist? I think it is to be found in the past 40 years of surging fundamentalism, both in America and the Middle East. The similarities, patterns and parallels between Iran and the Bible Belt are sobering. This absolutist view of things has grown from fringe to prevalent, from intellectual laughingstock to political potency. This has been an era of "Big Lies." One lie has been the deliberate distortion of Scripture (paralleled in Islam by the ignorant distortion of the Koran). Through sarcasm, intimidation, faux scholarship (and sheer volume), Christians have grabbed the field of Biblical inquiry and committed idolatry by constructing a God who suits their politics. Interestingly, this God has little to do with the God known by Abraham or called "Father" by Jesus of Nazareth.
Another troubling lie has been dualism, a division of reality into polar opposites, competing absolutes, which cannot coexist. This country survived its first 400 years by restraining Puritan rigidity and Catholic exclusivity, by declaring that this New World would not repeat Europe's terror of holy wars.
Fundamentalism, however, cannot tolerate tolerance.
The third lie has been polticization. Fundamentalists can bring in the votes--the so-called "Moral Majority" was neither moral or a majority, but its claims scared many politicians. Serious debate on moral issues became impossible. Political stances were labeled "God's will."
Most believers, meanwhile, have stayed largely silent, focusing on internal matters (perfecting liturgy and redressing gender inequalities). They have been intellectually lax and politically naiive, and are just as ignorant as their fundamentalist brothers and sisters of biblical scholarship. The status quo has allowed fundamentalism to shape an entire generation's comprehension of Scripture. They have likewise ignored Jesus' parables and aphorisms, failing to translate them into the living water for the parched postmodern desert we all find ourselves wandering across. One major disheartening thing has been the dismissal of fundamentalists as silly and lower class. This labeling keeps many from understanding the fundamentalist mindset as--among many things-- a natural human reaction to complex world events.
But the Big Lies remain. And if Big Lies eventually come to be seen as truth, then "the ruler of this world," as Jesus named him, will have a field day.
Aimiel
Well-known member
If I could make sense of this jumble of a mis-guided question, I might be able to answer it.
I think it might be akin to one of the 'trick' questions that Jesus fielded almost daily while in Jerusalem. It is designed to make the audience think that the one posing the question is wise beyond the reaches of mere mortals. Thank God that I don't have to sacrifice my child to appease you, or my government or any religous customs of my country. But, on the other hand, He did. He chose so sacrifice the only Child He has ever had, Jesus, and there is peace (in the spirit-realm), and riches have been given to the poor (in the Kingdom of Heaven, which is at hand), and the people of God have been empowered to deliver ALL who are oppressed of the devil. Now, whether we ever finally realize that and stand up (like a mature man) and make use of the power and authority that has been given to us, well, that's another thing. I believe that we will, one day... hopefully soon. I also believe that Christians are free of evil and tyranny, forever, in the Spirit, which is greater than the natural. We have peace with God, we walk in His Authority and Anointing, and have Heaven as our dwelling place. All thanks to God, for letting go of the Child He held, and allowing Him to be killed. Well, He also rose from the dead, and many still don't believe His Words.
>The innocent victims?
I know what this phrase means when said by non-Christians, but not when used when by Christians, especially Reformed Theonomists.
I thought everyone was born a sinner, "born in trespasses and sins." I thought David "confessed" that he was a s sinner before he died.
So there are no "innocent victims," only people whose sins have not been discovered. Kill them all and let God sort them out.
I know what this phrase means when said by non-Christians, but not when used when by Christians, especially Reformed Theonomists.
I thought everyone was born a sinner, "born in trespasses and sins." I thought David "confessed" that he was a s sinner before he died.
So there are no "innocent victims," only people whose sins have not been discovered. Kill them all and let God sort them out.
The length and force of your reply shows a defensiveness not needed. If you cannot get beyond the dead literalism in my musings, don't feel bad!
How about if I pose it this way--
Are you willing to kill innocent people (collateral damage, friendly fire, or even wilfull murder) to bring about peace IF you are personally convinced by God, your common sense and/or another higher authority that if you do so lives will be saved, peace will ensure and poverty and tyranny will be erradicated?
It's not a trick question. I am not a priest and I don't think you are Jesus. The question is posed as a supposition because it matches the contours of real reasons we go to war. When it comes down to basic facts, war (killing other people--usually innocents) is always justified by the reasons I have outlined above.
So I am curious as to what your answer would be. I know what mine is.
And speaking of Jesus, he said "love your enemies...do good to those who persecute you." He either said it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways. Mainstream biblical scholarship says that in the Bible there are obvious things Jesus said and obvious things his followers put into his mouth. But the overswhelming consensus is that he did counsel us to love our enemies and do good even to the wicked. You can't have it both ways or try to bury what he said in belief or dogma to avoid facing his challenge.
Blessings to you!
Aimiel
Well-known member
OK, I'll Bite
OK, I'll Bite
But, please don't put me in the fish-basket, just catch and release, OK?
OK, I'll Bite
But, please don't put me in the fish-basket, just catch and release, OK?
Yes.
If there were no justification it would be 'agression,' and not war, such as what Iraq did to Kuwait.
I thought you said it was not a 'trick' question.
Well, interpretation of scripture is up to individuals. I don't think that any of our soldiers were harmed (before being sent to the Operation Iraqui Freedom Theater) by the soldiers they were ordered to attack, they were defending the basic rights of others; namely the people of Iraq as well as their neighbors. No, if someone were to treat me wickedly, (though this never has happened to me, I have always been treated fairly by everyone I have ever come across) I would not return evil for evil, but rather forgive them and allow them to have their way with me. I would, however, defend my wife or any one of my five children (not to mention countless bretheren in the Lord as well as MOST of my family members) with my very life, and in such dire circumstances might be forced to ressurect some of my Navy training and terminate, with extreme prejuidice. I also have sued people (non-Christians) because I have to look out for my family, it's a stewardship thing.
And I bless you. I know that God has and does and will bless you as well.
Re: OK, I'll Bite
Re: OK, I'll Bite
No one can put you in bondage when you are right with the Lord.
The human secular trap is to always find "justification." That way we can keep focused on the speck of dust in our brother's eye and--after carefully ignoring the planks of wood in our own eyes--always have "good reasons" for any act we do. Even if it is evil. Because our intentions are "good." We focus on our "good intentions" and not on the not-so-good results of our good intentions.
It is an interesting idea that some believers are doing away with mediation between the Written Word and our interpretation of it. I am just surprised to hear that from you. In our purest form, we Baptists used to have what we called the priesthood of the believer, the notion that every individual has the right to interpret Scripture as he or she sees fit. Unfortuantely, that old doctrine has been secularized and minimized through the years. You don't see it much anymore...
You have valid reasons which you have imposed upon our troops. I think that you are doing the best you can do given the information and beliefs you have. I just want to give Jesus a fair shake, whose parables and aphorisms are being trumped by propositional and dogmatic theology.
We have seen the result of what has happened--even on this website-- when the Ruler of This World has his way. Attacks, put-downs, scriptural ignorance and biblical illiteracy run rampant--so much so that one day a year has to be declared so that people must be forced to post only "nice things." I wonder how many tables in the Temple that strategy will help overturn....
Only getting back to Jesus will help us and most of us haven't yet figured out how to translate his teachings to the modern ear. If we can just let Jesus begin speaking for himself again, the church will change. When Jesus comes back in glory, the church will be a redundancy.
Re: OK, I'll Bite
No one can put you in bondage when you are right with the Lord.
The human secular trap is to always find "justification." That way we can keep focused on the speck of dust in our brother's eye and--after carefully ignoring the planks of wood in our own eyes--always have "good reasons" for any act we do. Even if it is evil. Because our intentions are "good." We focus on our "good intentions" and not on the not-so-good results of our good intentions.
.
It is an interesting idea that some believers are doing away with mediation between the Written Word and our interpretation of it. I am just surprised to hear that from you. In our purest form, we Baptists used to have what we called the priesthood of the believer, the notion that every individual has the right to interpret Scripture as he or she sees fit. Unfortuantely, that old doctrine has been secularized and minimized through the years. You don't see it much anymore...
You have valid reasons which you have imposed upon our troops. I think that you are doing the best you can do given the information and beliefs you have. I just want to give Jesus a fair shake, whose parables and aphorisms are being trumped by propositional and dogmatic theology.
We have seen the result of what has happened--even on this website-- when the Ruler of This World has his way. Attacks, put-downs, scriptural ignorance and biblical illiteracy run rampant--so much so that one day a year has to be declared so that people must be forced to post only "nice things." I wonder how many tables in the Temple that strategy will help overturn....
Only getting back to Jesus will help us and most of us haven't yet figured out how to translate his teachings to the modern ear. If we can just let Jesus begin speaking for himself again, the church will change. When Jesus comes back in glory, the church will be a redundancy.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Well Put
Well Put
Personally, I believe that if George Bush (Jr.) were president in 1940 or so, that Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin would have been 'de-throned,' much the same way that bin Laden and Saddam have been today. Think of the lives we could have saved. My dad might not have gotten the two clusters he has on his Purple Heart, and he would not have gotten the Silver Star. He might have kept his left kneecap, and been healther now (he is 90 years young). I also belive that we have to do things that are considered evil by some, but the sin we live with is bringing these thing upon us. I also thank God for the police, who carry weapons of lethal force, for a good reason. They kill bad people, when they are forced to, by the situation. This thing in Iraq is one of those. That is my opinion.
Well Put
Personally, I believe that if George Bush (Jr.) were president in 1940 or so, that Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin would have been 'de-throned,' much the same way that bin Laden and Saddam have been today. Think of the lives we could have saved. My dad might not have gotten the two clusters he has on his Purple Heart, and he would not have gotten the Silver Star. He might have kept his left kneecap, and been healther now (he is 90 years young). I also belive that we have to do things that are considered evil by some, but the sin we live with is bringing these thing upon us. I also thank God for the police, who carry weapons of lethal force, for a good reason. They kill bad people, when they are forced to, by the situation. This thing in Iraq is one of those. That is my opinion.