Synagogue shooting and antisemitism

[ok doser]

It is convenient and comforting to divorce Nazi antisemitism from 1,000 years of European Christian antisemitism. A shame that it doesn't fit reality.

not sure that's what idolater was doing

i don't think anybody denies the existence of european Christian antisemitism

but i think it's a mistake to think that antisemitism was unique among all the other tribal hatreds that have been ongoing since recorded time

sure, hitler may applied typical german organizational skills to the extermination of unwanted peoples, but the Holocaust™ seems banal compared to the Rwandan genocide, the Ukrainian mass starvations, the Armenian genocide, the Cambodian genocide, the unknown millions upon millions slaughtered and starved in Maoist china


and it's worth remembering that jews were only one group targetted by the nazis - sure, 6 million dead is nothing to minimize, but very few people know that that's 6 million out of 17 million total, including the slavs, the roma, etc


hilter's "final solution" to the problem of european jewry was more the norm, historically, than the exception

 

[Idolater]

It is convenient and comforting to divorce Nazi antisemitism from 1,000 years of European Christian antisemitism. A shame that it doesn't fit reality.

Nazism was not Christianity, nor was it Christian. And I am not Antisemitic.

 

[Traditio]

It is convenient and comforting to divorce Nazi antisemitism from 1,000 years of European Christian antisemitism. A shame that it doesn't fit reality.

I don't want to deny that there was some kind of relationship between some strand or other of Christian antisemitism and Nazi antisemitism (I'm inclined to think that the Germans were open to Nazi antisemitism because of the pre-existing Christian antisemitism), but it's simply not true to say that Nazi antisemitism simply was Christian antisemitism.

That's not true. Yes, I'm sure that the Nazis occasionally appealed to Christian themes, but if you look at the fundamental reasons why they were antisemites, their antisemitism was profoundly secular and socialist.

It's not even just reducible to Martin Luther's "They are plotting against us and are going to kill us and take our property."

The Nazis thought of the Jews as rootless international parasites who would enter into a host nation, and yet, never actually become an integrated part of that host nation. Yes, a Jew might take on the mannerisms, the dress, etc. of a German, but the Jew would never be, nor would he ever think of himself, as a German, but a Jew, nor would the Jew ever really enter into the common life of the nation, e.g., by engaging with the other German "plebs" in manual labor. No, they thought that the Jew is inherently a merchant (read: huckster), a banker, etc. In a word, they thought that the Jew was a naturally grasping sort of fellow, always grasping at money, power, influence, etc., without having any real ties of blood or soil (for, they would say, this rootless international profiteer would live one day in Vienna, another in Prague, another in London, since he conducts his business everywhere, without regard for national borders) to the nation in which he was operating. As such, the Jew, while seeking to exploit his host nation, could never truly have the interest of his host nation in mind, but only the interest of himself and his fellow Jews (thus the reason, they would say, that the Jews, as a whole, were not as impacted by the Great Depression and the economic troubles that followed the end of WWI).

And if you wanted evidence of this, they would point to international banks like the Rotchschilds bank.

If they were alive today, they would doubtlessly have pointed to Goldman Sachs.

 

[Traditio]

but i think it's a mistake to think that antisemitism was unique among all the other tribal hatreds that have been ongoing since recorded time

Antisemitism is far different from other, far more mundane and provincial tribal hatreds.

Antisemitism is cross cultural, cross-ideological, ancient and widespread.

 

[quip]

In a word, they thought that the Jew was a naturally grasping sort of fellow, always grasping at money, power, influence, etc., without having any real ties of blood or soil (for, they would say, this rootless international profiteer would live one day in Vienna, another in Prague, another in London, since he conducts his business everywhere, without regard for national borders) to the nation in which he was operating. As such, the Jew, while seeking to exploit his host nation, could never truly have the interest of his host nation in mind, but only the interest of himself and his fellow Jews

Sounds akin to the modern day capitalist... abroad.

 

[Traditio]

Sounds akin to the modern day capitalist... abroad.

That's why I said that their antisemitism was profoundly socialist. They essentially claimed that the Jews were international capitalists.

Which is crazy, of course.

It's not like Jews were then, and are now, massively overrepresented when it comes to power, money and influence (and especially international power, money and influence (and especially political influence)).

(Except, of course, they are.

Meanwhile, how is the Jewish representation when it comes to construction, garbage collection, etc.?)

 

[Traditio]

Jews make up roughly 1.4% of the US population.

Meanwhile, they make up half of Trump's cabinet (I may be exaggerating, but if I am, it's likely not by much).

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Not to mention that they are massively overrepresented when it comes to the most wealthy people in the country/world.

 

[ok doser]

Antisemitism is far different from other, far more mundane and provincial tribal hatreds.

Antisemitism is cross cultural, cross-ideological, ancient and widespread.

i would suggest that the prevalence of jewish populations in most societies (western societies, anyways) might have something to do with that.

betcha there's little anti-semitism in china or vietnam, for example

i would also suggest that the jews' success in retaining their cultural identity in countries not traditionally jewish might also play a role. Those outsiders who integrate into an existing society usually face less discrimination, unless they are recognizable as "different"

for example:

 

[User Name]

Worth a careful review:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/p/luther-exposing-myth.html

AMR

Also worth a careful review:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Q.E.D.

 

[ok doser]

consider the following - which group do you suspect encounters more overt racism?

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[ok doser]

Jews make up roughly 1.4% of the US population.

Meanwhile, they make up half of Trump's cabinet (I may be exaggerating, but if I am, it's likely not by much).

Funny how that works, isn't it?

not so funny


didja know that 100% of trump's daughters are jewish?

 

[Traditio]

One further point:

Does anybody else find it hilarious that, in this one unique instance, the media narrative was:

Vile racism responsible.
Bad Orange Man responsible.

Apparently, in this one unique instance, the gun didn't pick itself up and start shooting people.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

 

[chair]

That's why I said that their antisemitism was profoundly socialist. They essentially claimed that the Jews were international capitalists.

Which is crazy, of course.

It's not like Jews were then, and are now, massively overrepresented when it comes to power, money and influence (and especially international power, money and influence (and especially political influence)).

(Except, of course, they are.

Meanwhile, how is the Jewish representation when it comes to construction, garbage collection, etc.?)

You are implying that since Jews are successful, there must be something wrong with them.

 

[Traditio]

You are implying that since Jews are successful, there must be something wrong with them.

This is a right wing argument, isn't it?

You could apply literally the same argument 1. against left-wing identity politics and 2. against economic left wing policies in general.

Except, of course, that the argument makes less sense against Jewish overrepresentation than it does against left-wing identity politics. The West has historically been majority white. Of course most successful people will be white. That's to be expected.

But Jews are a tiny minority; meanwhile, no matter where in the world of money, media, power and influence you look, you will see Jews, and lots of them.

 

[Traditio]

[MENTION=5868]chair[/MENTION]:

Here is an example. There are over a billion East Asians in the world. How many popular East Asian comedians who have appeared on Western television can you name right off of the top of your head?

How many Jewish comedians can you name?

And when you answer that, tell me:

Why do you think that is?

Do you think that Jews are inherently funnier than East Asians?

 

[Traditio]

Further question [MENTION=5868]chair[/MENTION]:

Why do you suppose Jews have been so disproportionately successful compared to everyone else?

You think that Jews are better than everyone else? Are they just naturally superior to the other races?

 

[chair]

Further question [MENTION=5868]chair[/MENTION]:

Why do you suppose Jews have been so disproportionately successful compared to everyone else?

You think that Jews are better than everyone else? Are they just naturally superior to the other races?

Spit it out. What do you think is the reason for all this?

 

[Traditio]

Spit it out. What do you think is the reason for all this?

To be perfectly honest? I don't really know.

I could go the Jordan Peterson route and say that minor differences on average translate to major difference in the extreme cases. Jews, on average, are slightly more intelligent, enterprising, etc. Therefore, the most successful people, on average, will be Jews.

I'm not sure how convincing this explanation is, especially given the fact that capital is such a major part of the success of the Jews.

But note, if you accept this argument, then you have to reject left wing identity politics.

Another factor is in group preference. When the guy who shot up the Jewish synagogue was finally arrested, and he was taken into a hospital to be treated, do you know who treated him? Jews. Because obviously, the people working at the hospital closest to the Jewish synagogue were Jewish medical professionals.

On average, Jews tend to be around other Jews (read: Jews have strong in-group preference).

But at the end of the day? I don't know. I will say this, however: I think that a major source of antisemitism is when you have a major disparity between the rich and the poor, and the poor look up and see that many of the rich, the powerful, etc. are Jews, and oh, by the way, Jews tend to live together, work together, etc.

When many, if not most, Germans are in financial trouble, but they see that the Jews are doing just fine, indeed, that the Jews are thriving, and not only that, but that many of them are profiting off of their misery (a modern example would be Steve Mnuchin, who foreclosed on a 90 year old grandmother over a debt that was less than a dollar) the fact that there is antisemitism isn't really surprising.

 

[Traditio]

In other words, [MENTION=5868]chair[/MENTION], practically speaking, to be anti-capitalist (and, in particular, to be against Jewish capitalism, i.e., the tyranny of the banks) is to be an antisemite. Empirically speaking, this is just true.

And understand: this has nothing to do with Christianity or Islam.

 

[Traditio]

"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. [...] The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power" (Karl Marx, On the Jewish Question).