Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[Turbo]

Jesus identified the tithe as part of the law, and a lesser matter at that:

• "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Matthew 23:23

 

[cravescheese]

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Pay tithes to yourself if you want.

You as a priest do not need to pay tithes to any other priests.

These full time pastors that preach tithing need to get a job and support themselves.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Do you just make things up as you go?

:nono:

I suppose, but it is based on years of study. These are merely my reasonable opinions that have support from other believers or teachers.

What do you not understand about these basic hermeneutical principle?

i) Interpret Scripture in light of the historical, contextual, grammatical, theological context of the original audience (revelation was given centuries ago, not for the 21 st century). We must find the one intended meaning for the original audience.

e.g. Corinthians was written to first century believers in Corinth. It is issue literature. What did it mean to them?

ii) Once we know the one correct interpretation of a passage, we find the eternal principles and make applications for believers of all generations. There may be more than one application.

Sozo, you still have not identified what religion or denomination you identify with. Perhaps you are the subjective standard of truth?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus identified the tithe as part of the law, and a lesser matter at that:

• "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Matthew 23:23

He still commended tithing, but their motive and lack in other areas was rebuked. Jesus did not rescind tithing or murder or adultery laws, but expanded on them (heart/motive vs externals).

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by godrulz

He still commended tithing, but their motive and lack in other areas was rebuked. Jesus did not rescind tithing or murder or adultery laws, but expanded on them (heart/motive vs externals).

(Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say He clarified them.)

He preached obedience to the whole Law, for He ministered to Israel. But the Body of Christ is not under the law. We are not required to tithe any more than we are require to circumcise or keep the sabbath.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Pay tithes to yourself if you want.

You as a priest do not need to pay tithes to any other priests.

These full time pastors that preach tithing need to get a job and support themselves.

Nice twisting of Scripture. We pay tithes to God, not to priests and certainly not to ourselves (let's all rationalize selfless giving away and use God's $ to buy toys for ourselves?!).

Pastors that preach tithing and stewardship are trying to be faithful to Scripture as they understand it. They will be accountable for what they teach. Many leaders are bi-vocational. The Pauline principle is that leaders are worthy of support (do not muzzle the ox). He voluntarily gave up his right to support so no one would question his motives. Many cults do not pay their front line leaders (hierarchy is paid). This is not as effective as full-time equippers.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I suppose, but it is based on years of study. These are merely my reasonable opinions that have support from other believers or teachers.

What do you not understand about these basic hermeneutical principle?

i) Interpret Scripture in light of the historical, contextual, grammatical, theological context of the original audience (revelation was given centuries ago, not for the 21 st century). We must find the one intended meaning for the original audience.

e.g. Corinthians was written to first century believers in Corinth. It is issue literature. What did it mean to them?

ii) Once we know the one correct interpretation of a passage, we find the eternal principles and make applications for believers of all generations. There may be more than one application.

Sozo, you still have not identified what religion or denomination you identify with. Perhaps you are the subjective standard of truth?

Again, you cannot water down the Law! Either tithing is a command of God that cannot go unpunished unless you follow it perfectly...

or

We are to give freely without compulsion as we see need.


I am a bible believing, spirit filled, child of the living God. I occasionally attend a Bible Baptist Church, and unfortunately spent 10 years in a Charismatic Assembly which I left 12 years ago. I managed an evangelical radio station, and have been teaching home bible studies for 15 years.

 

[godrulz]

Sorry about your negative charismatic experience. These groups include everything from conservative evangelicals to the lunatic fringe. I would not throw the baby out with the bath water, but search Scripture for an understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

We do not keep the Law in order to be saved. I am merely suggesting that the tithe is a reasonable guideline or starting point for our giving. People who subjectively give what they feel, tend to give a token amount hindering ministry. The stats on believer's level of giving show that most give very little to God (in contrast to the Mormon empire).

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Nice twisting of Scripture. We pay tithes to God, not to priests and certainly not to ourselves (let's all rationalize selfless giving away and use God's $ to buy toys for ourselves?!).

How is that a twist. Are we not priests? Tithes were paid to support the priesthood. And I am not saying we should not be giving, but paying for these lazy CEO's of Church-corporations to have nice homes, cushy lifestyles and go on book signing tours, is not paying tithes to God. Don't kid yourself.

You want to righetously manage your money. Do what Jesus said. Sell all you have and give your money to the poor. Jesus didn't tell the man to give 10% of his money to a 501.3(c).

Originally posted by godrulz
Pastors that preach tithing and stewardship are trying to be faithful to Scripture as they understand it. They will be accountable for what they teach. Many leaders are bi-vocational. The Pauline principle is that leaders are worthy of support (do not muzzle the ox). He voluntarily gave up his right to support so no one would question his motives. Many cults do not pay their front line leaders (hierarchy is paid). This is not as effective as full-time equippers.

Leaders are worthy of support, but they shouldn't be a burden on their congregations if they have means to support themselves.

In other words, if they have a skill and can earn money to support themselves, they should. The church can take a collection to make up a difference if there is a valid reason for it.

I see many pastors that are fat, obviously gluttonous sloths who would be far better off earning a living instead of leeching off their hardworking brothers and sisters.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz


We do not keep the Law in order to be saved. I am merely suggesting that the tithe is a reasonable guideline or starting point for our giving. People who subjectively give what they feel, tend to give a token amount hindering ministry. The stats on believer's level of giving show that most give very little to God (in contrast to the Mormon empire).

But, you can't build doctrine around "reasonable guidelines"... ugh!

Those who do, are practicing Nicolaitanism... which is establishing control over people without any substantive support.

Teaching Christians to tithe has absolutely no biblical support.

 

[godrulz]

The legitimate support of godly, hard-working leaders should not be confused with the poor work ethic of a few. Our principles of giving should be fleshed out from Scripture and not our anecdotal observations of the hypocrites.

Unbelievers reject Christianity based on poor examples of Christians. They are still without excuse since the Word of God and person of Christ are the issues they must wrestle with.

Rejecting biblical principles is not excused by pointing fingers at those whom God will accurately judge.

I have no more patience for leeches than you do.

Early leaders gave themselves to prayer and the Word. Serving the flock full time is a legit occupation, but it must be done with integrity and accountability.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Unbelievers reject Christianity based on poor examples of Christians.

If that is what you think, then I sincerely believe that you are in a cult.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

If that is what you think, then I sincerely believe that you are in a cult.

This is an arrogant, ignorant comment. Your credibility has taken another hit.

SOME unbelievers reject Christianity with the EXCUSE that there are hypocrites in the church. This is basic apologetics and easily refuted. The issue is the truth and one's relationship with/to Christ, not the imperfections of man.

What cult teaches that unbelievers reject Christ based on poor examples of Christians? NONE.

Do you always jump to conclusions and judge people's relationship with God based on misunderstanding statements out of context with no knowledge of their beliefs or heart?

I would not be surprised if you attend a narrow, legalistic church that thinks it is the only one with understanding. I have no basis for this other than your quirky comments.

 

[cravescheese]

It never fails to amaze me that the churches that push the law of tithing the most, almost always seem to be the nicer than God, don't judge anyone churches.

In other words, they throw out the law except the one that pays their salaries.

Makes sense actually, that way you can have the largest possible flock to fleece, since you have alienated no one...homos, adulterers, your all welcome, just ante up when the collection plate comes around.

Anyone else see a pattern amongst these kinds of churches?

 

[godrulz]

One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a principle (not a legalistic law) in the Word of God.

One should be careful of crass skepticism about the motives of churches that demonstrate excellent stewardship and are accountable with the money of God's people (channel it to ministry and advancing the kingdom). There may be abuse by some leaders, ministries, churches. God will judge them (and we can too if there is evidence).

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a principle (not a legalistic law) in the Word of God.

One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a tradition of men (not required by God) which are condemned by the Word of God.

Originally posted by godrulz
One should be careful of crass skepticism about the motives of churches that demonstrate excellent stewardship and are accountable with the money of God's people (channel it to ministry and advancing the kingdom). There may be abuse by some leaders, ministries, churches. God will judge them (and we can to if there is evidence).

One should be careful of willful ignorance about the workings of the enemy wolves in sheeps clothing that God's Word proclaims will and have come amongst God's people. There is abuse by many leaders, ministries and churches. God will judge them and so must we. He that is spiritual judges all things.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

This is an arrogant, ignorant comment. Your credibility has taken another hit.

My credibility is with God, and you have ZERO to say about it.

As far as my comment appearing to be ignorant, it is indeed you that are ignorant as to why people reject Christ. YOU are not the example, Christ is! We testify concerning Him, and not ourselves. We are witnesses of who He is, what He has done, and the message concening Him!

SOME unbelievers reject Christianity with the EXCUSE that there are hypocrites in the church.

Have you ever read Romans Chapter 2? It is not the example of the behavior of "Christians" that keeps the unbelievers opposed to God, but the fact that "Christians" teach that they are an example because of their behavior. That is what a cult does, and that is what YOU claimed.

Do you always jump to conclusions and judge people's relationship with God based on misunderstanding statements out of context with no knowledge of their beliefs or heart?

It is a rather short step to conclude that anyone who teaches tithing as applicable today is either in a cult, or attending a church that is foreign to the message of Christ. It is not hard to spot a counterfeit when you are so familiar with the real thing.

 

[godrulz]

The majority of evangelical churches support tithing as a guideline. They do not tie it to salvation. The alternative is bingos and bake sales and garage sales, etc. to fund ministry.

Why the aversion to giving systematically and proportionately of our income? Greed? Selfishness? This is a principle established early for the people of God. There is no reason to think there are no principles (especially doing less under grace than the law) for NT believers. I would expect a billionaire should give more than 10% and a person on welfare no more? This does not have to be binding or a compulsion. If we encourage people to support a missionary, this does not mean we are under the Law.


Cheese: what church, religion, denomination do you identity with? Do they have any standards or guidelines on belief and practice? Let each decide based on the Word and their relationship with God.

I would rather give significantly as unto God than tip Him and blow the rest on my needs and wants.

 

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

The majority of evangelical churches support tithing as a guideline. They do not tie it to salvation. The alternative is bingos and bake sales and garage sales, etc. to fund ministry.

Broad is the road that leads to destruction.

Originally posted by godrulz


Why the aversion to giving systematically and proportionately of our income? Greed? Selfishness? This is a principle established early for the people of God. There is no reason to think there are no principles (especially doing less under grace than the law) for NT believers. I would expect a billionaire should give more than 10% and a person on welfare no more? This does not have to be binding or a compulsion. If we encourage people to support a missionary, this does not mean we are under the Law.

Why the non-aversion to it? How about simple mathmatics.

If every family gave 10% of their income then, it would take 9 families to give one pastors family the average income of the 9 families (assuming he was not to tithe himself, 10 if he was to tithe)

So now you have these mega churches and denoms. You have one head pastor and maybe 5 or 6 paid assistant pastors. They would only need 70 or so families to support them.

But they aren't satisfied with that. They want to hve big buildings with leases and mortgages. They need a christian bookstore to sell sugar coated precious moments cliche-theology plaques to hang in your bathroom. They need to always collect more and more. There is never enough. Talk about GREED and SELFISHNESS.

Where do you find authorization in the NT for the church to own any property? Where does it say they had buildings, schools or anything like what the multi-level-christians proclaim that God wants the church to have?

Open your eyes, most of these so called pastors are far more concerned with fleecing the sheep than feeding the sheep.

Originally posted by godrulz

Cheese: what church, religion, denomination do you identity with? Do they have any standards or guidelines on belief and practice? Let each decide based on the Word and their relationship with God.

I would rather give significantly as unto God than tip Him and blow the rest on my needs and wants.

I identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ not any man made "demon-ination" or religion. There is only one church.
I currently attend a church that is a Calvary chapel (Chuck Smith)affiliate, but trust me, I don't agree with all the ear-tickling sermons that they preach.

Now answer me:


How are you giving to God? Jesus didn't say to give money to the apostles and let them administer it, He said give it to the poor.

If you want to give, great, but don't be fooled you aren't giving it to God. You would be much wiser to give it to the poor directly, at least you would know they got it.

Of course then you might not get a tax deduction....

 

[Lovejoy]

"Ear-tickling" huh? 2Timothy 4:3 is one of my favorite verses, or at least one of the ones that I take most to heart. It is a very clear warning about what we have to deal with.