lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
Does that mean you would support the killing of your own children for being 'rebellious'?
Can you point me to even one new testament reference which calls for the death penalty for homosexuality?
Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?
- Thread starter lovemeorhateme
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Does that mean you would support the killing of your own children for being 'rebellious'?
Can you point me to even one new testament reference which calls for the death penalty for homosexuality?
well, there's that bit about jots and tittles to start with
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
"Being a lesbian" wouldn't be enough to be executed anyways. The only way the law could be enforced is if there were two witnesses to a sexual act. In which case, it would still be an execution for an act considered abominable by God, not a human sacrifice to God. God condemns human sacrifice in every case without exception.
Those who don't care what God commands are a lost cause on any of these issues unless/until they decide they do care what God commands.
But there are another group of people in these debates: Christians who are willing to follow what God commands, whatever it is, but that think these penal sanctions were meant to apply to nations other than OT Israel. Those are probably the people you should address. Admittedly, as a Reformed person who recently became theonomic, I don't really understand how a dispensationalist can be a theonomist, the hermaneutics seem to clash.
Depends on how one understands this passage:
Romans 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practice them.
Pretty much says that those who practice it, and those who consent to/support those who practice it, are worthy of death.
But we are all worthy of death because all have sinned. Only by His grace are we saved from the fate we deserve.
lovemeorhateme
Well-known member
Indeed all have sinned. There are a number of other sins in this list too. Maybe this passage is talking about the spiritual death of hell?
My question to those who support the death penalty for homosexuality would be what do they make of this verse?
"Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:25"
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
I'll actually agree with you that this particular verse is talking about spiritual death. But since Hebrews 2:2 says every penalty in the OT is just, and the New Testament has never rescinded the OT penalty against homosexuality, I would argue that the penalty should be presumed to still be just and to still be in effect today. Romans 13:4 saying that just governments* are "agents of God's wrath against the evildoer" adds further credence to the idea that governments should execute God's wrath against sin.
Do I think govt should punish all sins? No. But the idea that homosexuality and adultery are not deserving of such is a very new idea and I don't see Biblical support for it.
The same way an advocate for the death penalty for anything would handle it. This passage really isn't dealing with civil government at all. Its dealing with how we as Christians should address those who disagree with us. That doesn't mean government shouldn't execute the death penalty, either against murderers or homosexuals.
God bless you brother
CL
yes, but the context is that those who practice the first listed, will be given over to a debased mind and will be followed with those other things, its not talking about all those things combined, but those things as a result of a degraded conscience before God.
Perhaps but it appears to be talking about unrepentant and willful sin to me and what happens when one is given over once they know the truth, and reject it. The larger passage even speaks of knowing the truth and then rejecting it.
Like a warning.
I don't support execution of homosexuals because i am not God to know when they have been made aware of the truth and rejected it, however i am in support of jail time for its practice because it corrupts society. (and before anyone asks adultery used to also be a crime and it still should be)
TracerBullet
New member
Yet the title of this thread is...."Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?"
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
OK, but since nobody supports executing people for an orientation, let's assume this thread says "should those who engage in homosexual sex be executed" because I'm pretty sure that's what LMOHO meant when he started the thread.
Sexual orientation is not determined by whether or not a person is sexually active.
TracerBullet
New member
Deuteronomy 13:13-19 "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
1 Kings 13:1-2 "At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the Lord's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the Lord says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you."
and
2 Kings 23:20-25 "He [Josiah] sacrificed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the Lord your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the Lord in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the Lord's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the Lord with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since."
TracerBullet
New member
^^exactly
True. Whether "Active" Or Not, "Orientation" Matters. Define "Orientation . . I Already Know, Vague; No Definitive Definition. So . . It Goes Beyond That Word, As To How And Why. When. Deep Psychological Analysis Is Necessary. I Truly Believe Something "Happens" Early In Life, Before Identity Is Established, Leading To "Confusion" ~ Another Vague Word.
TracerBullet
New member
Sexual orientation refers to an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.
I think the confusion starts when it is assumed that a minority has something wrong with them in the first place
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
OK then. "Homosexuals" should be executed only if they have engaged in homosexual sex with two or more witnesses to the crime.
That better?
If God's standard was met who am I to defy Him? I submit to Him; regardless of my personal feelings on the subject. Just as I do with the subject of the poll.
Can you point me to even one NT passage that calls for the DP for anything?
How about one that rescinds it for anything?
:thumb:
If they are Christians then they are not a lost cause. They just need to understand what God commands and be willing to submit to Him rather than themselves.
Just because salvation is not dependent upon the law doesn't mean the law isn't good for society.
No .... there is nothing *better* about advocating laws that are based solely on religion.
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
You're using the non-dispensational hermaneutic here
Dispensational hermaneutics only counts what is actually in the NT as being for us (or in Paul for MADists)Nobody thinks salvation is dependent on the law. That's not really the issue at hand.
Everyone does. I just don't try to pretend secularism is a religion. In fact, I didn't even pretend such as a libertarian. Because it literally makes no sense.
No. They do not. Most people understand the difference between force and violence VS an activity that is consensual.
False.You're using the non-dispensational hermaneutic here
Some people do.