Sexual Orientation is not a Choice

[Sancocho]

I just read an article where Jimmy Carter, a Southern Baptist, claims Jesus Christ would support gay marriage. He basically states homosexual unions are about love and they do no harm to society.

My question is how in the world was this guy voted president? How can we as a society ignore all the evidence that points to a damaging effect that embracing homosexuality has on a society? Not only disease driven by promiscuity but a breakdown of family values on a society that have real costs associated with it. Look at the police budgets of any developed country that embraces homosexuality and abortion and they are much more that Catholic countries where these are not permitted. As societies values diminish there is a direct increase in cost to maintain peace.

Furthermore, every Christian should take the "homosexual effect" seriously, just as God made an example of a society in the Old testament to the scathing rebuke of homosexuals by St. Paul. This "homosexual effect" is when homosexuality departs from being a perversion to a minor abnormality and then progresses to something that is to be celebrated. The impetus behind this transformation is that since homosexuality is such a serious sin the natural reaction to people who practice it is to require CONSTANT affirmation in order to keep their conscience at bay. Before society embraces homosexuality gays must "stay in the closet" which acts as a natural limit to all but the most perverted individuals. However, as certain segments embrace homosexuality these create centers where homosexuals can congregate, thus keeping their conscience more of less under control. This is apparent in the US in the 70's in San Francisco. Of course the necessity of affirmation drives homosexuals to continue to promote their cause, thus allowing more individuals to openly embrace their unwanted desires. This snow ball effect continues even further as homosexuals grow in influence in secular public institutions and thus are able to use their position to indoctrinate children.

Interestingly, history has shown us none of the nations, such as the Greeks or the Romans, that have embraced homosexuality have remained intact, nor shall we. Just like the aforementioned the cost of keeping a corrupt society will become too much and we will fail or be replaced by nations that reproduce. This is why homosexual nations never remain intact.

 

[glassjester]

How can we as a society ignore all the evidence that points to a damaging effect that embracing homosexuality has on a society? Not only disease driven by promiscuity but a breakdown of family values on a society that have real costs associated with it.

I would classify embracing homosexuality as more of a symptom than a cause.

 

[Sancocho]

I would classify embracing homosexuality as more of a symptom than a cause.

It is a symptom of rebellion that causes the destruction of society.

 

[glassjester]

It is a symptom of rebellion that causes the destruction of society.

I agree.

C.S. Lewis compares morality to a fleet of ships (possibly a nod to Plato's "Ship of State"). The crew of each ship must keep the ship in right relation to the other ships, headed in the right direction, and in good working order.

Governments tend to only legislate morality as it pertains to our relation to one another. This gives people the false impression that they can do no wrong in decisions that only involve themselves (ie, sexual preferences).

 

[exminister]

A gay infant boy on his first day can't help thier mother treating them like a girl. Its the parents that makes them gay. Thats the qualifications of the elder. They must control the children. Sissying means not controling. My sister aborted and much later glad to have her first child. The extreme long term gladness made her son gay. He needed that long term closeness later in his life so he got married to another man in Vegas, the sin city. Now he is still a baby ruined by his mother. He ought to be a plumber.

Are you born a sinner or did your mother make you that way?

 

[exminister]

I would suggest that guilt is largely a learned response imposed on children by parents during the socialization process.
Yet, as a child, there were things that I felt were wrong without anyone telling me so.
As to taste? It is most certainly a genetic, chemical response.
When I was a little girl, my father, with good intentions I'm sure, forced me to eat liver. I put a piece in my mouth (he was not the kind of father one could disobey) and chewed and chewed as scalding tears streamed down my face. All of a sudden I gagged and spewed projectile vomit all over the table. My mother was so enraged that she took him to task and never again was I forced to eat anything.

Same happened to me with beets.

 

[genuineoriginal]

This comment has nothing to do with the question I asked. We are not dealing with morals, we are dealing with orientations.

You seem to be forgetting that "orientation" is a misleading term for a person's physical preferences for a sexual liason.
The person dwelling on those physical preferences until that lust becomes part of the person's identity is a moral issue.

Your assertion ignores facts. If, as you claim, sexual orientation is the result of years of conditioning, how do you explain people who were raised in devout Christian households that teach the homosexuality is wrong and evil before God coming out as homosexual?

First, there were many more factors in the person's environment than just the devout Christian parents. The person was influenced by classmates, teachers, babysitters, friends, other relatives, random encounters with strangers, television, radio, magazines, advertisements, and more. We also do not know how much time each parent spent with the person and what the relationship between the parents was like. There are many factors involved in the years of conditioning that lead up to puberty.
Second, each person has free will to honor their father and mother or to reject the beliefs of their father and mother. Some children are just stubborn and rebellious. See Deuteronomy 21:18-20.

I am not ignoring facts.

 

[TracerBullet]

Homosexuality isn't initially about a person wanting to desire people of their own sex but unwanted desires brought on by other factors. There is plenty of evidence that shows people can have sexual desires brought on by all types of stimuli, from children, animals, objects, violence, power, dead persons or even one's own self, etc. The base sexual drive is there for the opposite sex of course but at some point desires can depart from the norm for many reasons.

In the case of children psychology has well established their susceptibility to embracing suggestions and as for adults I think we can defer to Scripture for the cause - arrogance. The latter certainly accounts for the resistant percentage of homosexuals who embrace their identity as opposed to resisting it. In my many years of apologetics I have had the opportunity to discuss this issue with many homosexual Christians, practicing or otherwise. What I have found in the majority of cases is why they all say the desires are initially unwanted,

Seems more likely that this has something to do with things like discrimination and hatred and prejudice so many in our society project towards gays and lesbians

they are not interested in rejecting the desires at a later part in their life nor much less repenting of lustful homosexual desires but rather have embraced their condition, in fact with a great deal of "pride".

In fact "pride" is the dominating theme of every resistant homosexual that I have discussed this issue with. This is of course the exact opposite of what the Gospel asks of us. On the other hand of the thousands of testimonies of ex homosexuals those who humbly submit to God without reservation are the ones who are rid of SSA.

resistant homosexual? you mean one who rejects idea of self hatred others seem eager to impose on them

 

[PureX]

C.S. Lewis compares morality to a fleet of ships (possibly a nod to Plato's "Ship of State"). The crew of each ship must keep the ship in right relation to the other ships, headed in the right direction, and in good working order.

Who is determining what is the "right direction"? In our society it is the 'ships' themselves that must do it. This, of course, will cause chaos as all these 'ships' are each determining their own courses. So the purpose of government is to set up rules to keep them from crashing into each other.

What do you propose, instead? A theocracy; where all the ships are ordered to follow the dominant religion's course? Or some other form of autocracy intent on the promotion of it's own well-being? Then what of individual freedom? And what of faith without it? What good is a moral course that has to be forced on people?

Governments tend to only legislate morality as it pertains to our relation to one another. This gives people the false impression that they can do no wrong in decisions that only involve themselves (ie, sexual preferences).

How do you perceive them doing wrong to others by what they choose to do behind closed doors with each other?

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is all you see? I see differences in problem solving and nurturing and discipline and emotions and child rearing. All you see are physical differences and you call me narrow minded?

Yes, you are narrow minded, but now you are mixing up the different points of the argument in a futile attempt to salvage your side in this debate.

What makes a homosexual a homosexual?
An abnormal desire to have sex with someone that has the same type of reproductive organs as himself.

This abnormal desire did not come just from differences in problem solving and nurturing and discipline and emotions and child rearing, but it came from a lot of other factors as well.

I worked with a gay man for several years. We had opportunity to discuss things and I learned that his desire was not for a specific body part, it was for male company. He hated women. He worked okay with them but he did not like their company. I would conclude that your analysis here is based o what you think is true and nothing else.

It sounds like the guy has an abnormal desire for male company and a distorted self image since the guy believes that he has to have sex with the other men in order to get them to spend time with him.
His distorted self image and abnormal desire is probably the result of the trauma he experienced that created his hatred of women.

He needed someone to guide him towards some counselling that could have helped him instead of someone that would celebrate his crippled emotions.

 

[TracerBullet]

I just read an article where Jimmy Carter, a Southern Baptist, claims Jesus Christ would support gay marriage. He basically states homosexual unions are about love and they do no harm to society.

My question is how in the world was this guy voted president? How can we as a society ignore all the evidence that points to a damaging effect that embracing homosexuality has on a society?

what evidence?

Not only disease driven by promiscuity

promiscuity is no more a gay thing than a straight thing

but a breakdown of family values on a society that have real costs associated with it.

what family values are you saying have broken down and how do you place blame on that on a single minority?

Look at the police budgets of any developed country that embraces homosexuality and abortion and they are much more that Catholic countries where these are not permitted. As societies values diminish there is a direct increase in cost to maintain peace.

SO its the gays that are committing all those crimes?

Furthermore, every Christian should take the "homosexual effect" seriously, just as God made an example of a society in the Old testament to the scathing rebuke of homosexuals by St. Paul. This "homosexual effect" is when homosexuality departs from being a perversion to a minor abnormality and then progresses to something that is to be celebrated. The impetus behind this transformation is that since homosexuality is such a serious sin the natural reaction to people who practice it is to require CONSTANT affirmation in order to keep their conscience at bay.

projection

Before society embraces homosexuality gays must "stay in the closet" which acts as a natural limit to all but the most perverted individuals.

if you lived in a society where being a christian meant at best being ostracized or loosing your job and home to at worst being imprisoned, tortured, mutilated and killed I suspect you would stay in the closet as well.

However, as certain segments embrace homosexuality these create centers where homosexuals can congregate, thus keeping their conscience more of less under control. This is apparent in the US in the 70's in San Francisco. Of course the necessity of affirmation drives homosexuals to continue to promote their cause, thus allowing more individuals to openly embrace their unwanted desires. This snow ball effect continues even further as homosexuals grow in influence in secular public institutions and thus are able to use their position to indoctrinate children.

I'm wondering when you will start claiming that gays are possessed by demons

Interestingly, history has shown us none of the nations, such as the Greeks or the Romans, that have embraced homosexuality have remained intact, nor shall we. Just like the aforementioned the cost of keeping a corrupt society will become too much and we will fail or be replaced by nations that reproduce. This is why homosexual nations never remain intact.

Rome didn't collapse until after it became a Christian nation. Just saying

 

[TracerBullet]

You seem to be forgetting that "orientation" is a misleading term for a person's physical preferences for a sexual liason.
The person dwelling on those physical preferences until that lust becomes part of the person's identity is a moral issue.

you are being misleading when you try to claim orientation is a physical preference and that it is just about sex

First, there were many more factors in the person's environment than just the devout Christian parents. The person was influenced by classmates, teachers, babysitters, friends, other relatives, random encounters with strangers, television, radio, magazines, advertisements, and more. We also do not know how much time each parent spent with the person and what the relationship between the parents was like. There are many factors involved in the years of conditioning that lead up to puberty.

And the evidence that anyone's orientation is "influenced" by any of these interactions...zero

I am not ignoring facts.

:chuckle:

 

[Sancocho]

Seems more likely that this has something to do with things like discrimination and hatred and prejudice so many in our society project towards gays and lesbians

Any survey of statistics would dispel that claim. Furthermore, the acceptance of homosexuality in the education system is at super majority levels. Nonetheless, homosexual teen suicide and depression are increasing in spite of this historic and overwhelming support by society. Of course the gay lobby will claim that more effort is needed to ensure that virtually EVERYONE accepts homosexuality but the problem is this is in direct conflict with pluralism that allows everyone to believe in whatever they want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

resistant homosexual? you mean one who rejects idea of self hatred others seem eager to impose on them

Jesus tells us to recognize our sins and repent of them and deny ourselves in order that we can grow as Christians. I understand this is a completely foreign concept for those who embrace homosexuality because it is the elevation of "self". Ironically, while homosexuals spend their time trying to convince themselves and others they shouldn't hate themselves those who know Christ have Him to build us up after we sin. This is not possible for those who not only do not repent of their sins but worse openly embrace them.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You seem to be forgetting that "orientation" is a misleading term for a person's physical preferences for a sexual liason.
The person dwelling on those physical preferences until that lust becomes part of the person's identity is a moral issue.

I'm not forgetting anything, I am disagreeing with you that orientation is a misleading term. It is not. It conveys meaning and it is an amoral term.

First, there were many more factors in the person's environment than just the devout Christian parents. The person was influenced by classmates, teachers, babysitters, friends, other relatives, random encounters with strangers, television, radio, magazines, advertisements, and more. We also do not know how much time each parent spent with the person and what the relationship between the parents was like. There are many factors involved in the years of conditioning that lead up to puberty.
Second, each person has free will to honor their father and mother or to reject the beliefs of their father and mother. Some children are just stubborn and rebellious. See Deuteronomy 21:18-20.

I am not ignoring facts.

Yes you are. You have to to remain comfortable with your world view. Have you ever actually had a conversation with a gay person?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yes, you are narrow minded, but now you are mixing up the different points of the argument in a futile attempt to salvage your side in this debate.

What makes a homosexual a homosexual?
An abnormal desire to have sex with someone that has the same type of reproductive organs as himself.

You are wrong here. Homosexuality is not just about sex as you are attempting to assert. If it was just about sex, why to homosexual want to marry? Is your marriage just about sex?

This abnormal desire did not come just from differences in problem solving and nurturing and discipline and emotions and child rearing, but it came from a lot of other factors as well.

One of those factors seems to be an inborn desire. Tell us, what date did you choose to become a heterosexual? When did you say to yourself, "I am only going to like women from this point on."

It sounds like the guy has an abnormal desire for male company and a distorted self image since the guy believes that he has to have sex with the other men in order to get them to spend time with him.
His distorted self image and abnormal desire is probably the result of the trauma he experienced that created his hatred of women.

He needed someone to guide him towards some counselling that could have helped him instead of someone that would celebrate his crippled emotions.

You do know that counseling doesn't work in the majority of cases, right? That has been proven to the point that churches that used to attempt counseling to convert homosexuals have abandoned that tactic as useless.

 

[genuineoriginal]

you are being misleading when you try to claim orientation is a physical preference and that it is just about sex

What part of "Sexual Orientation" do you believe is not about sex?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I'm not forgetting anything, I am disagreeing with you that orientation is a misleading term. It is not. It conveys meaning and it is an amoral term.

It is an immoral term when it is used to give legitimacy to same gender sex.

Have you ever actually had a conversation with a gay person?

Yes.
I have also had conversations with rapists and pedophiles.
The stories about how they finally reached those sexual orientations are all very similar to each other.

 

[Quetzal]

It is an immoral term when it is used to give legitimacy to same gender sex.

Yes.
I have also had conversations with rapists and pedophiles.
The stories about how they finally reached those sexual orientations are all very similar to each other.

I hate that comparison because they aren't the same thing.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It is an immoral term when it is used to give legitimacy to same gender sex.

Since I have never done that, it remains an amoral descriptor.

Yes.
I have also had conversations with rapists and pedophiles.
The stories about how they finally reached those sexual orientations are all very similar to each other.

Have you ever asked a homosexual when they chose to be homosexual?

And since you missed this, let me repost it for you: Tell us, what date did you choose to become a heterosexual? When did you say to yourself, "I am only going to like women from this point on."

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are wrong here. Homosexuality is not just about sex

Of course it is.
It is a depraved self-identity that is based solely on the abnormal desire to have sex with someone of the same gender.

If it was just about sex, why to homosexual want to marry?

Deep down they know that their abnormal desires have no legitimacy, so they want to marry in a vain attempt to convince themselves that the lie they are living is not a lie.

Is your marriage just about sex?

Are you trying to avoid the issue?
We are talking about how an abnormal desire for same gender sex is the defining factor of those that call themselves "homosexuals".
They try to legitimize their abnormal desire by calling normal people "heterosexuals" as if the normal desire to have sex with a person of the opposite gender was no different than their abnormal desire to have sex with people of the same gender.

You do know that counseling doesn't work in the majority of cases, right? That has been proven to the point that churches that used to attempt counseling to convert homosexuals have abandoned that tactic as useless.

Yes, many attempts to stop homosexuals, pedophiles, rapists, and other sex offenders through counselling have failed. There are many reasons for the failure, but one of the biggest factor is that the chemicals produced in the brain by sexual gratification creates a feedback loop that reinforces the abnormal sexual desires.

The counselling I was referring to was to help the person deal with his issues about women that makes him prefer men, even if he has to sell his soul and have sex with the men in order to get them to spend time with him.