Sexual Orientation is not a Choice

[glassjester]

You always knew that you wanted to have sex with a woman. Didn't you?

No way, did you? Always?

I didn't know what sex was until I was maybe 8 or 9, and I asked my older brother, "What's sex?"

I do remember that in pre-school, the kids used to always ask one of the boys which girl he wanted to marry, and he'd say, "All of them!" That, we all thought, was hilarious!

We also said, "Ewww!" because we thought it was gross that he liked those icky girls.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yes, most people that have chosen to act on unnatural desires to have sex with people their own gender do not choose to stop committing acts against nature.

Just like most thieves do not choose to stop stealing and most murderers do not choose to stop murdering, unless there is a real threat of punishment that is greater than their desires.

You almost seem to be starting to grasp the difference between the die sire to do something and actually doing it. Almost.

 

[CabinetMaker]

No way, did you? Always?

I didn't know what sex was until I was maybe 8 or 9, and I asked my older brother, "What's sex?"

I do remember that in pre-school, the kids used to always ask one of the boys which girl he wanted to marry, and he'd say, "All of them!" That, we all thought, was hilarious!

We also said, "Ewww!" because we thought it was gross that he liked those icky girls.

I thought you read my responses where I talked about orientation becoming obvious at puberty. Would care to honestly answer the question or not?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Not true for all humans. Some humans are attracted to the same sex in spite of biological imperatives. We don't fully understand why, but it is true none the less.

They are damaged goods.
You may not like the term, but it is true none the less.

I would wager that you always knew you wanted to have sex with woman. What you find attractive in a woman has changed, but your desire for them never has. The same seems to be true with many homosexuals; their tastes may change, but their desire does not.

You seem to be limiting yourself to a single body part (or set of body parts) as your entire definition of what is sexually attractive and what is not.

That leads to the same type of false dichotomy that prevents you from progressing in a debate.

Most people discover that it is the non-physical qualities of a person that are the most sexually attractive.

 

[CabinetMaker]

They are damaged goods.
You may not like the term, but it is true none the less.

They are beloved of God. If they repent of their sinful acts they will be in the Kingdom right next to you.

You seem to be limiting yourself to a single body part (or set of body parts) as your entire definition of what is sexually attractive and what is not.

Incredibly shallow interpretation of what I have said. I have never put any limits on it. You, on the other hand, were the first to begin mentioning specific body parts and attributes.

That leads to the same type of false dichotomy that prevents you from progressing in a debate.

Then it is a false dichotomy of your own position as I have never limited my comments.

Most people discover that it is the non-physical qualities of a person that are the most sexually attractive.

I never said otherwise, did I.

 

[Lon]

Sexual orientation is not a choice (that's the title of the thread).

I didn't choose to be heterosexual.

Yes you did. "Before" you were sexually active (if you are no longer a virgin), you were "a-sexual." Neither existed prior. You are confusing 'desire' with what one actually does. "As a man thinks" doesn't mean you are no longer a virgin. Fact is, you are 'a-sexual' until you actually 'act.'

No one did.

Yes I did! I CHOSE no sex until I was married.

There's no such thing.

There are LOTS of a-sexual people in the world. With the divorce rate, probably half of Christians should have remained single and a-sexual.

But my choices over time shaped by taste in partners.

Based on reason and moral beliefs, people ought to gradually whittle down their partner preference to one person or zero people.


This I did. That one person is my wife.


If they base the partner-selection process on desires rather than reason, they will never make a righteous choice - they are becoming slaves to sin - no matter the gender of the partner.

I 'think' I follow this, but I'm trying to get people to realize that the homosexual agenda is trying to play the 'made this way' card. We are not sexual until we have sex and such isn't where the Christian's mind and heart are at. We don't buy into 'made this way' as an excuse for any sexual misbehavior. Sin is sin and we don't excuse or overlook it. We can be compassionate and should be, but God opposes the proud and give grace to the humble. The prideful sinner attacks merely to be allowed to sin unrestrained.

For the most part, this is the main thrust of the political arena at present: removal of restrictions regarding sexual behavior.

Well, we have done so as far as consenting adults making legal decisions that they are responsible for, but that doesn't mean such may not be sin, but rather that each person is responsible for his/her own behavior/misbehavior and consequences, as well as what this means before their Maker.

Socially, when we hurt one another, we should be held accountable. There are few sins that "aren't hurting anybody else." We have to continue to determine public policy as it relates to society and what harm may be visited upon another regarding those policies. As far as 'born this way' goes, I don't believe it is much of an excuse. If I was 'born heterosexual' it doesn't excuse promiscuity, nor really matter if I think I'm 'born this way.' I am responsible for my behavior rather than 'irresponsibly born this way.'

 

[glassjester]

I thought you read my responses where I talked about orientation becoming obvious at puberty. Would care to honestly answer the question or not?

I made lots of moral choices before puberty, didn't you? Those choices preceded, shaped, and informed the desires that would later accompany puberty.

Besides, do you really believe that the sexual desires of adolescents ought to dictate sexual habits for one's entire life?


As I said above, many of my moral choices preceded adolescent sexual desires. I would say somewhere between ages of 7 and 11 I decided I would "marry a lady" one day. Yes, I say decided. There was nothing desirous or sexual about this.

This was most likely based on what I saw modeled by my parents' and grandparents' relationships. I decided to pursue the same kind of life as them. Kids spend years imagining what their adult life will be like, and what they would like it to be.

Later on, physical desires arise, tempered by those choices of what kind of life they'd like to have. And these are moral choices. They are based on what kind of life you believe is good to pursue.

 

[bybee]

I made lots of moral choices before puberty, didn't you? Those choices preceded, shaped, and informed the desires that would later accompany puberty.

Besides, do you really believe that the sexual desires of adolescents ought to dictate sexual habits for one's entire life?


As I said above, many of my moral choices preceded adolescent sexual desires. I would say somewhere between ages of 7 and 11 I decided I would "marry a lady" one day. Yes, I say decided. There was nothing desirous or sexual about this.

This was most likely based on what I saw modeled by my parents' and grandparents' relationships. I decided to pursue the same kind of life as them. Kids spend years imagining what their adult life will be like, and what they would like it to be.

Later on, physical desires arise, tempered by those choices of what kind of life they'd like to have. And these are moral choices. They are based on what kind of life you believe is good to pursue.

What if you decided you wanted to have floppy ears and a waggy tail? What kind of dog would that make you?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I made lots of moral choices before puberty, didn't you?

No. I was learning what morals were. And I believe in an age of accountability.

Those choices preceded, shaped, and informed the desires that would later accompany puberty.

So, before you reached puberty, you were already fixating on young girls. Very interesting. and VERY unusual.

Besides, do you really believe that the sexual desires of adolescents ought to dictate sexual habits for one's entire life?

I never said nor asserted any such thing. This is your own straw man.

As I said above, many of my moral choices preceded adolescent sexual desires. I would say somewhere between ages of 7 and 11 I decided I would "marry a lady" one day. Yes, I say decided.

Interestingly enough, somewhere between the ages of 7 and 11 is when puberty begins. Imagine that! You made your choice to be heterosexual about the same time you would most likely have entered puberty!

This was most likely based on what I saw modeled by my parents' and grandparents' relationships. I decided to pursue the same kind of life as them. Kids spend years imagining what their adult life will be like, and what they would like it to be.

Yes, they do. And in spite of that modeling, some kids still choose the same sex. I know of a family with two kids. One is married and contemplating a family. The other recently came out as gay. They were raised the same. Same house, same parents, same schools. Yet one is gay. How can that be in your world?

Later on, physical desires, tempered by those choices of what kind of life they'd like to have. And these are moral choices. They are based on what kind of life you believe is good to pursue.

Sometimes, our choices about who to love are based far more on desire than morals.

 

[glassjester]

What if you decided you wanted to have floppy ears and a waggy tail? What kind of dog would that make you?

It wouldn't make me a dog at all. That would be an unnatural desire, and I would choose not to persist in it.

 

[glassjester]

No. I was learning what morals were. And I believe in an age of accountability.

I do too. What age would that be?

So, before you reached puberty, you were already fixating on young girls. Very interesting. and VERY unusual.

No. I didn't want to marry any little girls. I decided I would have a wife some day. Like I said, it wasn't sexual.

I never said nor asserted any such thing. This is your own straw man.

First you said orientation is fixed at birth; then you said it could change. Next you said it is set at puberty, now you say the sexual desires of puberty should not necessarily follow one into adulthood. Which is it?

Interestingly enough, somewhere between the ages of 7 and 11 is when puberty begins. Imagine that! You made your choice to be heterosexual about the same time you would most likely have entered puberty!

You hit puberty at 11? Wow. I was probably like 13 or 14 before that happened - voice change, growth spurt, you know.

Sometimes, our choices about who to love are based far more on desire than morals.

And should we do that? Make choices based on desire?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I have never seen such shallow arguments.

If you stick around TOL, you will see many arguments that are even shallower.
I seem to remember you choosing the losing side in the thread about whether older men find younger women sexually attractive.
That thread had many shallow arguments

Yes, there is a moral difference.

No, there is no moral difference between coveting your neighbor's wife and coveting your neighbor.

But that does nothing to address that a persons sexual attraction to another is independent of morals. Morals will determine how one reacts to the attraction, but morals do not determine the attraction. Something else does.

I believe I already addressed that, but you seem to have ignored it.

What you think is a normal sexual attraction created at the time of conception is in reality the result of many years of conditioning to create an individual's sexual preferences by the time that person reaches puberty.

 

[glassjester]

What you think is a normal sexual attraction created at the time of conception is in reality the result of many years of conditioning to create an individual's sexual preferences by the time that person reaches puberty.

Right. And the truth is, we are our own strongest conditioners. Thoughts arise - we choose to continue to think them, or dismiss them. Desires arise - we choose to act on them or ignore them.

From these minuscule, numerous, frequent choices we shape our own future desires, thought patterns, and habits.

 

[genuineoriginal]

They are beloved of God. If they repent of their sinful acts they will be in the Kingdom right next to you.

Yes, and if they take pride in their sin and claim that God loves them even if they are practicing sexual sin, they will end up in the lake of fire.

Incredibly shallow interpretation of what I have said. I have never put any limits on it. You, on the other hand, were the first to begin mentioning specific body parts and attributes.

You seem to be missing the big picture because of your narrow-mindedness.

What is the real difference between men and women?
Body parts.

What is the real difference between homosexuals and normal people?
The homosexual has an abnormal sexual desire for a specific body part not found on a woman.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What if you decided you wanted to have floppy ears and a waggy tail? What kind of dog would that make you?

Barf?

 

[TracerBullet]

There is a lot of money out there to find a homosexual biological source, nonetheless they all have been abject failures after subjecting their "results" to similar rigorous peer review used in other areas.

thousands of studies on the topic have passed through their rigorous peer reviews.

However, given the volatility and sensitivity of the topic few scientists are willing to offer peer review because of the implications of being black balled in the scientific field. I know quite well has this works as I was in a masters program headed for a doctorate program to do research.

a thesis review is not the same as the peer review of a scientific article

Specifically, the first study would pretend to show homosexuals are the product of more virulent mothers therefore insinuating that there must be some type of conection. Nonetheless, the sample size is way to small and any studies like this need to be taken from different countries to offset the bias due to social factors. In other words a big zero.

and what of the dozens of studies done replicating this and all coming to the same conclusion?

In the second "study" the relation between the x chromosome and homosexuality yet there is no sample size mentioned. Furthermore, the theory is only valid if evolution is scientific fact, which of course it never has been no ever would be.

so evidence isn't evidence if you don't want to believe it

 

[TracerBullet]

3. Those who promote homosexuality as innate IGNORE relevant studies regarding child psychology that show the fragile state of children that can be influenced by social factors.

cite these studies please

4. Plethoras of studies funded by the US government has shown for many teenager homosexuality is fluid and over time the subjects of these massive surveys gravitate toward exclusive OSA. (opposite sex attraction) In fact there are more ex homosexuals alive than homosexuals.

on what planet?

 

[genuineoriginal]

thousands of studies on the topic have passed through their rigorous peer reviews by homophiles

FTFY

 

[TracerBullet]

Even if you say its not a choice, it is still a choice to act on it.... which is wrong outside the bounds of a real marriage (man and woman).

The issue I have with the gay community is that they get away with so much indecency in their pride festivals that would automatically get any heterosexual person thrown in jail and put on the sexual offenders list.

you have obviously never been to mardi gras

 

[TracerBullet]

That is your opinion, but it is not substantiated by any facts.

_____
Some Gays Can Go Straight, Study Says

Dr. Robert Spitzer, a psychiatry professor at Columbia University, said he began his study as a skeptic — believing, as major mental health organizations do, that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and attempts to do so can even cause harm.

But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise. Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning — a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship within the past year and getting enough emotional satisfaction to rate at least a seven on a 10-point scale.

He said those who changed their orientation had satisfying heterosexual sex at least monthly and never or rarely thought of someone of the same sex during intercourse.
_____​

If you read the actual study (it failed it's peer review BTW) only 11 individuals claimed to have changed sexual orientation and all of them were employed by an ex-gay ministry. In other words they were being paid to say this.

A follow up review of these 11 was done around 2012 (I can't find the reference) Only 10 of these individuals could be found, none of them were still working for their ex-gay ministries and all admitted that they lied.


in 2012 Spitzer himself recanted his study and apologized for it and the pain and suffering it caused