Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

[Robert Pate]

All for whom Christ lived and died for, He did everything for them for God to save them! He obeyed Gods Law Perfectly for them, He believed God for them!

You don't believe that do you?

The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

 

[Nanja]

The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Pate, You need to understand what the word "world" constitutes according to the scriptures:

www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4363277#post4363277#1656


The World of Jn 3:16-17 !

Part 1 thru 3:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327237#892

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

The scripture says... "God so loved the world" John 3:16.

If God so loved the world, then God provided salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

Those Christ lived and died for, He did everything they needed to be done to be saved! They by Him have obeyed Gods Law Perfectly! You don't believe that do you?

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate, You need to understand what the word "world" constitutes according to the scriptures:

www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4363277#post4363277#1656


The World of Jn 3:16-17 !

Part 1 thru 3:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327237#892

~~~~~

The only way that you can make your doctrine work is to delete words, change words, or add words.

In other words you have to pervert and divert God's word, which you do.

Do you really believe that Paul was a Calvinist?

Paul taught justification by faith, Romans 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Where does Paul say that he was predestinated? Where does it say that anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell?

 

[beloved57]

The only way that you can make your doctrine work is to delete words, change words, or add words.

In other words you have to pervert and divert God's word, which you do.

Do you really believe that Paul was a Calvinist?

Paul taught justification by faith, Romans 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Where does Paul say that he was predestinated? Where does it say that anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell?

Since when did you believe what Paul believed? You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell for their sins, making God unjust!

 

[Robert Pate]

Since when did you believe what Paul believed? You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ lived and died for shall wind up in hell for their sins, making God unjust!

You had better do something.

You are resting in your predestination, when you should be resting in Christ.

John Calvin is not going to save you.

 

[beloved57]

You had better do something.

You are resting in your predestination, when you should be resting in Christ.

John Calvin is not going to save you.

Paul Preached Predestination as Part of His Gospel of Grace Message Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You reject Predestination, remember !

 

[Robert Pate]

Paul Preached Predestination as Part of His Gospel of Grace Message Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You reject Predestination, remember !

Ephesians 1:3-6.

Does not say that God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.

How else are you going to be holy and without blame?

We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wake up! You have been deceived by a heretic.

 

[beloved57]

Ephesians 1:3-6.

Does not say that God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell.

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.

How else are you going to be holy and without blame?

We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wake up! You have been deceived by a heretic.

Once you reject predestination, you reject Salvation by Grace ! Paul Preached it !

 

[Robert Pate]

Once you reject predestination, you reject Salvation by Grace ! Paul Preached it !

There is no grace in a God that predestinates people to hell for no reason.

You have got the wrong God.

 

[beloved57]

There is no grace in a God that predestinates people to hell for no reason.

You have got the wrong God.

Evil speaking against God!

 

[Dialogos]

Calvinist want us to believe that God is unjust, unmercilful and unrighteous, because that is what they believe that he is.

Lie#1.

If you believe that God chose "some certain persons" to be saved and damned the rest to hell, then you would be justified in believing that about God.

You would be justified in your own mind but if you actually read Romans 9 you would know that God didn't ask any of us what we would do were we in His position.

They frequently refer to Romans chapter 9 to make their point. I have done an indepth study of Romans 9 and have found that their beliefs and accusations are false. This article is rather lenghty. Please bear with me.

This should be fun(ny)....

Romans 9:1-5. The oracles of God were committed to the Jews. They were God's chosen people in the sense that it would be through the Jewish people that the savior of the world would come. Just as the Jews were the keepers of the law and the oracles of God, it was also God's plan that they would also be the keepers of the Gospel. It didn't completely work out that way.

This is an assertion, an unjustifiable assertion. But probably no terribly relevant in the final analysis.

Romans 9:6-9. "They are not all Israel which are Israel". Abraham had spiritual descendants and physical descendants. The spiritual descendants of Abraham are Gods people and are Christians. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau.

Sort of. Paul is explaining how it is there are so few saved Jews. Paul points out that not all physical Jews are spiritual Jews.

Romans 9:10-16. It was Gods plan that Jacob was to be one of the Patriarchs that would lead to Christ. Only one son could be a Patriarch. God chose Jacob. Esau was not a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Esau was of the flesh. He was more concerned about the things of the flesh than spiritual things. Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. Jacob loved God. It is only natural that God would love those that love him.

Here is where Pate goes off the rails and it is completely understandable as to why. In Pate's theology, God doesn't predestine in any meaningful way, therefore Pate must somehow sneak the notion that God's choice of Jacob is someway attributable to something meritorious in Jacob rather than God's sovereign choice. Thus Pate talks about how Jacob loved God, loved the spiritual things of God, etc...

But that's not what the text says at all.

Pate's commentary on the verse is actually contradicted by the verse itself!

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:10-16 ESV)​

Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?

Lets start there....

 

[aikido7]

Since Calvin came hundreds of years after the Apostle Paul was alive, he is interpreting Paul's gospel with his own agenda showing.

In that respect, John Calvin is no different from any other Christian theologian.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does? They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that. Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated either to heaven or to hell. The Whole Calvinist doctrine is built upon assumptions. They are assuming that the scriptures teach predestination, when in reality it doesn't.

 

[Dialogos]

The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

Uh, no, no it doesn't.

The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly,

Robert said, contradicting himself.

Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

We've been through these verses before and Pate's interpretation logically leads to universalism.

Pate claims that, at the final judgment. God imputes sin back to those who refuse to believe the gospel. He does so despite the fact that John 3:18 refutes him.

There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

I, of course, disagree.

The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34.

Meaning that God does not prefer Jews over gentiles...

Way to rip that one right out of context, Bob.

Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

Calvinist contend that believers in Jesus were chosen by God before the foundation of the world...yes we do.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Here Pate sets up his standard. If the bible doesn't state it in the way Robert expects, it doesn't count. So we can point out clear verses like John 6:44 and Pate will ignore the clear implications.

Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does?

The bible.

They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

Lets kick Calvin around some...



If Pate had read his church history, he would realize that Calvin didn't invent the notion of predestination, he got it from Augustine who in turn got it from his study of the bible.

Lets start with the bible and work our way up rather than starting with theologians and work our way down, shall we?

They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

Most Calvinists would believe in the sovereign election of God even if there were no John Calvin, because we get our doctrine from the bible.

If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It is major doctrine and the bible is replete with references to predestination.

Lets look at some that Pate tries to deal with.

It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that.

The bible does say the following.

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:17-18 ESV)​

Did God have mercy on Pharaoh or harden him?

Bob, do you think Pharaoh is in heaven?

Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

It does say the following.

(Romans 9:11-16 ESV) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.​

Who received mercy, Jacob or Esau?


Finally, Robert. Will you get around to answering my question?

Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?​

 

[beloved57]

pates denial of predestination to salvation !

pates denial of predestination to salvation !

The Gospel and justification by faith refutes Calvinism.

The Gospel is about how God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

There is no room in the Gospel for predestination or Calvinism.

The scripture plainly tells us that God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. Yet Calvinist contend that they were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be his own special people.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS GOD HAS PREDESTINATED ANYONE TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

Where do these Calvinist get the idea that God does? They get it from a heretic called John Calvin.

They would rather believe the words of a heretic than to believe the Bible.

If the doctrine of predestination were true this would be major, major, major doctrine and the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing.

It would say..."And God predestinated Pharaoh to hell" There is nothing like that. Nor does it say that Esau was predestinated to hell.

There is no scripture about anyone being predestinated either to heaven or to hell. The Whole Calvinist doctrine is built upon assumptions. They are assuming that the scriptures teach predestination, when in reality it doesn't.

Predestination is a Gospel of Gods grace Truth Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Thats Predestination to Christ likeness, which is Salvation !

 

[Brother Ducky]

Ephesians 1:3-6.]

What it does say is that before the foundation of the world God chose all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ.


We are all children of God in Jesus Christ.

We are made acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

In Ephesians 2:3 Paul indicates that the believer, "we," are by nature children/objects of wrath. It would seem that your theology of all people being children of God is bogus.

 

[Robert Pate]

Uh, no, no it doesn't.


Robert said, contradicting himself.


We've been through these verses before and Pate's interpretation logically leads to universalism.

Pate claims that, at the final judgment. God imputes sin back to those who refuse to believe the gospel. He does so despite the fact that John 3:18 refutes him.


I, of course, disagree.


Meaning that God does not prefer Jews over gentiles...

Way to rip that one right out of context, Bob.


Calvinist contend that believers in Jesus were chosen by God before the foundation of the world...yes we do.


Here Pate sets up his standard. If the bible doesn't state it in the way Robert expects, it doesn't count. So we can point out clear verses like John 6:44 and Pate will ignore the clear implications.


The bible.


Lets kick Calvin around some...



If Pate had read his church history, he would realize that Calvin didn't invent the notion of predestination, he got it from Augustine who in turn got it from his study of the bible.

Lets start with the bible and work our way up rather than starting with theologians and work our way down, shall we?


Most Calvinists would believe in the sovereign election of God even if there were no John Calvin, because we get our doctrine from the bible.


It is major doctrine and the bible is replete with references to predestination.

Lets look at some that Pate tries to deal with.


The bible does say the following.

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:17-18 ESV)​

Did God have mercy on Pharaoh or harden him?

Bob, do you think Pharaoh is in heaven?


It does say the following.

(Romans 9:11-16 ESV) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.​

Who received mercy, Jacob or Esau?


Finally, Robert. Will you get around to answering my question?

Pate comments and implies that God chose Jacob because Jacob loved the spiritual things of God. The text completely precludes this taking great pains to point out that God chose before either were born or had done anything good or bad.

Pate, can you please explain to us why you skipped over this important detail in order to provide commentary that is actually, directly contradicted by the text you are attempting to comment upon?​

The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times. How can you say that the Bible is replete with it? And then none of it is about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Nowhere does it say that God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. No, not Pharaoh, nor Esau.

You try to read a lot of things into the Bible that are not there.

 

[beloved57]

The word "Predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 times. How can you say that the Bible is replete with it? And then none of it is about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Nowhere does it say that God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. No, not Pharaoh, nor Esau.

You try to read a lot of things into the Bible that are not there.

Predestination is a Gospel of Gods Grace Truth which you don't believe Eph 1:3-6!

 

[Robert Pate]

Predestination is a Gospel of Gods grace Truth Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Thats Predestination to Christ likeness, which is Salvation !

The Bible knows NOTHING of a individual predestination. Simply because God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. God does everything corporately in by and through Jesus Christ.

God has Chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4.

God sees ALL THINGS in His Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.