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ECT Romans 9:21 the clay
- Thread starter Tambora
- Start date
:e4e: Anytime.
To my knowledge, she has no socks. :noid:
You are so smart!
Or it could just be because you know me.
But you're still smart anyway!
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Not the same issue.
musterion
Well-known member
I think the clay is Israel.
The rhetorical question Paul anticipates someone asking (v. 19) about why God would find still fault...which Paul's response seems to mark as a duplicitous, self-serving evasion...strikes me as exactly what an outraged, unrepentant, self-righteous Jew would have asked when informed that Israel had stumbled; it tries to throw the blame back onto God instead of self.
Anyway, Gentiles in that particular sense doesn't add up for me -- as a whole they were discounted way back at Babel.
But I could be wrong and often am.
The rhetorical question Paul anticipates someone asking (v. 19) about why God would find still fault...which Paul's response seems to mark as a duplicitous, self-serving evasion...strikes me as exactly what an outraged, unrepentant, self-righteous Jew would have asked when informed that Israel had stumbled; it tries to throw the blame back onto God instead of self.
Anyway, Gentiles in that particular sense doesn't add up for me -- as a whole they were discounted way back at Babel.
But I could be wrong and often am.
Right Divider
Body part
The reason that we claim it is because that's what scripture plainly says. You, on the other hand, destroy scripture with your illogical and perverse "spiritualizing" of everything in it.
The body of Christ NEVER had an Old Covenant, so it can't have a New one either. It doesn't need a covenant.
We in His body have Jesus Christ HIMSELF.
Israel had many mediators between themselves and God. We have JESUS CHRIST as our mediator.
musterion
Well-known member
He (and others) have been asked many times to show where God ever made any covenant directly with dog Gentiles. He can't, so he goes back to his Catholic roots and holds to some form of replacement theology to explain how he manages to benefit from the N.C. while present day Israel can't. It's the only way they can lay claim to the N.C.
But this is beside the point. Why would anyone, Jew or Gentile, need to claim a covenant when they have the riches of grace freely offered to them? I've never understood that.
Well make up your mind.
If Jesus Christ is your mediator between you and God then are you not included in the covenant sealed by Jesus blood between Himself and His Father?
Did you not know that it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized before He was filled with the Holy Spirit because He was a son of Abraham and David, being the man that He is.
Are you going to follow the RCC and claim Jesus is God and did not need to live under a covenant and you do not need one either?
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
If Jesus did not inaugurate the new covenant by His shed blood then there would not be an everlasting covenant.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
LA
Israel can today benefit from the NC and could for the past 2000 years as many did, like anyone else if they turn to Christ--
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
LA
The Gentiles became fellow heirs with the promises to Israel.
Any person in "modern day Israel" has the benefit of the New Covenant, just as any person in modern day China, Russia, Brazil, Sweeden, Canada, or any other country.
The Bible clearly explains how Jew and Gentile became one twain, one new man. There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile.
"the riches of the grace" is what the NC is.
Right Divider
Body part
You probably got this silly idea from reading your "NIV Bible".
That verse says 'HIS PROMISE' and NOT 'HIS PROMISES'.
(Gal 3:16 KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Gal 3
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ok, and Gal 3:16 KJV has "promises". So does verse 21
(Gal 3:21 KJV) Is the law then against the promises of God?...
So, what's your point?
Right Divider
Body part
You used the term "FELLOW HEIRS" in the post that I was replying to. Are you trying to deceive us?
Eph 3:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The Gentiles became fellow heirs with Israel with the "promise" and/or "promises", no matter how you look at it.
Also, the majority of the Israelites whom God divorced, scattered, had no mercy on, and were told they were "not a people" were amongst the Gentiles who became fellow heirs with the Jews.
That's how all of Israel "shall be saved".
Yes, the western nations are near full of the descendants of Israel of the flesh.
However there are now more Christians in China than any other nation.
None are refused inheritance in Gods Kingdom on the basis of their flesh, the same as they are not accepted by it either.
However there is a distinction among the believers of the coming millennium among the nations just as there is now, but not a distinction of the flesh in His Kingdom as now.
There are stages of salvation just as there was in the Temple worship of the OT,
but no unbelievers will survive into the mill.
LA