ECT Rightly Dividing

achduke

Active member
You are telling me you have never taken apart anything in your life in order to see what held it all together, and how, and also, how each part contributed to the whole, attempting to discern from all that dissecting, what general rules of thumb as to how it all worked, it all appeared to be pointing back to?

And you might want to put down your search in a Greek word for a moment and simply read, and take Paul's advice in 2 Timothy 2 about who and or what you are to look to for your "love."

Sooner or later, we can only disappoint one another.

Also, look at how not so nice, Paul is in his description there, of the words of Hymenaeus and Philetus - as much like a disease; capable of spreading worse and worse.

I'll leave you with these words from Paul to Timothy in that very chapter:

1. Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

That too is a right division issue, as - everything is a right division issue!

Ecclesiastes 3:

1. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

The problem I have is everyone just rips each other apart and in a mean spiteful way. There is a lot of name calling and not much rebuking in a positive way. All I see here is everyone defending their own doctrine thinking they are defending the gospel. God can defend the gospel. We are to witness. There is a difference. I choose now to go witness to the sinners. Not defend the gospel to self-righteous pharisees.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
That's good achduke. The only purpose for being here should be if there are real questions about the message.

I also happen to believe that a lot of the passion or interest or energy of the Gospel is actually stolen by how pop eschatology is done. I try to redirect that into effort with those outside with the historic Gospel, which is, like you said, what matters. But yeah, of all the things 'stealing' it, pop eschatology is right near the top, and that's not just because it is endless wrangling about when the rapture will happen or when a certain kingdom will happen. it's just plain not like the apostles in Acts 2 or 13.
 

Danoh

New member
As you can see from the context of 'rightly handling' it has to do first with the wrangling over words that is an unproductive way of studying. The verse has nothing to do with D'ism, for or against. 2nd, it has to do with 'godless chatter.' (I with there were some examples of what he meant). But on the whole it sounds like the passage from Corinthians where some people spend their time building with clay, stone and wood instead of find metal.

Must be true. I mean, you assert it.

Fact is, you are reading your erroneous 70AD based notions into Paul's words there.

I'll lay this out or those with ears to hear.

There, in 2 Timothy 2, in his word of encouragement to him, Paul communicates the following to him:

1. Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
6. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

To that he adds:

7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9. Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

He is basing his words of encouragement, and is desirous that Timothy focus himself during his trying time, on the assurance of that aspect of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that Paul had preached - thus his words "according to my gospel."

That is the issue of, on the one hand, how that the resurrection of Jesus Christ, from the dead proved Him to be David's rightful heir, over the Earth.

This is what Romans 1:1-3 asserts had been prophesied about that aspect of His resurrection - that He was that Jesus: the Christ.

On the other hand, Paul's words there in 2 Tim. 2: 8 are also the issue of how that Jesus Christ was also raised from the dead "according to" what Paul alone had referred to as "my gospel."

He goes into some aspects of that in the next passages:

10. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

How that he, Paul, is out there, not only enduring all things as a good soldier of Jesus Christ, but in hope of being an example to the elect; the saved, that their salvation might not end there, but that their salvation, work together with their enduring, to produce in them what they were saved unto to - to begin with - that those two together work its intended eternal glory in them, in the here and now.

If you know Scripture as well as you claim [despite your barely ever quoting it, or even citing its passages] then you know I am basing all that on many other passages in Romans through Philemon wherein Paul ties in sufferings with a working in and a display of eternal glory in the Believer in the here and now, not just in that coming day before the Lord, Romans 8; 2 Corinthians 4, for example.

From there he moves on to the critical need for Timothy to keep the fact of that hope ever in the remembrance of his hearers.

Not only for its capacity to work that eternal weight of glory in the Believer in the here and now, but in the face of the opposition their persecutions with Paul for the Mystery of the Gospel that Paul preached, was causing some to come up with some other doctrine as their explanation for the current events they were undergoing.

He then mentions two of those who had done just that - allowed their persecutions to cause them to conclude the fool notion "that the resurrection" Paul is talking about as their compass, as well as that eternal glory it could work in them during their trying times, was "past already."

That is the babbling and foolish questions he is speaking against, Mr. Bible Answer Man.

And he communicates all that to Timothy through his use of contrasts, distinctions, and or divisions between the two.

14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

It is in all that, that what he is talking about in verse 15, is made manifest.

He is not directly talking about rightly handling the word of truth. Rather, about the need for Timothy to steer a straight course, in his reminding of his hearers of the truth that Paul has just reminded Timothy himself of.

This, in contrast to, for example, the error of Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying...

The issue here is "saying" - is expounding that "word of truth" that Paul had referred to as "my gospel."

This is why the "rightly dividing."

It is the Early Modern English of the King James.

Translation does not always go by a word's definition that one looks up in a dictionary. Rather, it just as often is translated in accordance with how it is being used where it is found.

At least in the King James, a superior translation once more, in this respect.

In this, one key to the KJV is to look for a word's English equivalent, not its Greek - those men had this that together!

Here is what they had understood when they used their Early Modern English word "dividing" - 1 Corinthians 13:

11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Different Greek words, same Early Modern English word because they translated based on how a word was used where it was found.

Hebrews 4:

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2 Timothy 2:

14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

The sense is that of divide out the word of truth to your hearers. As when one divides a whole pie out to several people. Each piece, its whole, and yet, a part of the whole.

And towards that, one has to lay it all out, divide it asunder as to all that contributes to its whole; that is its whole - identify its various parts and how they all work together, as to who, what, when, where, and why.

So that one does not end up "having erred concerning the truth; saying that the resurrection" Paul has in mind here, as a yet future event - "is past already," as some assert even now.

All subjects and issues are... a rightly dividing the word of truth... issue...

I'm done for, now, gainsay it away, Interplanner.
 

Danoh

New member
...So the verse has nothing to do with finding major time distinctions God has created for history.

Which is why you and yours assert the lie that according to history, Christ returned in 70AD

Not about "major time distinctions God has created for history" you say...

2 Timothy 2:

16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Yea, okay... sure.
 

Danoh

New member
The problem I have is everyone just rips each other apart and in a mean spiteful way. There is a lot of name calling and not much rebuking in a positive way. All I see here is everyone defending their own doctrine thinking they are defending the gospel. God can defend the gospel. We are to witness. There is a difference. I choose now to go witness to the sinners. Not defend the gospel to self-righteous pharisees.

The problem you are having is that you do not yet know how to tell the difference between those who need to be rebuked sharply by those who are dong so soundly, and those who simply have some issue when it comes to dealing with those they disagree.
 

achduke

Active member
The problem you are having is that you do not yet know how to tell the difference between those who need to be rebuked sharply by those who are dong so soundly, and those who simply have some issue when it comes to dealing with those they disagree.

I have yet to see anyone rebuke any one in a meaningful way. Calling someone a name or just telling them to "sit down" is not meaningful.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Do you even know what the mystery of the gospel is, Jerry?

Of course you now want to change the subject because your ignorance has been exposed about the fact that believers have indeed been given the stewardship to preach the gospel. You are worthless as a steward because you are not even aware of your stewardship responsibility.

I've never seen you open your mouth boldly to make it known let alone make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery so how you can call yourself a steward of anything other than your "the Greek" from your so called scholars is just you quoting a verse you know nothing about. You best just get back to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

The following in "bold" sums up the mystery of the gospel:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The mystery of the gospel is centered on the Cross. That is the source of all the good news which comes to those who believe.

And it was first revealed by Paul and that is why he says, "But now...has been made known":

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

This righteousness which is of God and has been revealed has been given to ALL who believe. It is also "apart from the law."

But you in the Neo-MAD camp are so ignorant of the mystery of the gospel that you teach that the Jewish believers who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. And that is why all of you run and hide from this verse which demonstrates that the only thing that anyone needs to do is to "believe" in order to be saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is time for you to turn on your heels and run as fast as you can from the truth found here!
 
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tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
those who need to be rebuked sharply

You're right.

Those who need to be rebuked sharply are Dispensationalists.

It is Dispensationalists who spread the false doctrine of John Nelson Darby.

Darby's false doctrine is easily rebuked with scripture.

For example:

(1 Cor 10:11) These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Paul made it clear that the "culmination of the ages" occurred in the first century.

What Paul said lines up perfectly with what Hebrews, 1 Peter, and Revelation say, and also Matt 24:34 and Matt 16:28

Yet that won't stop Darby followers such as yourself from twisting the words of the Bible to make them fit Darby's false teachings.
 

achduke

Active member
The problem you are having is that you do not yet know how to tell the difference between those who need to be rebuked sharply by those who are dong so soundly, and those who simply have some issue when it comes to dealing with those they disagree.

Danoh, do you feel you are my senior anyway? I am a grown adult who has been around a longtime. There is a civilized and an uncivilized way to rebuke people. I recognize when people need to be rebuked. There are also civilized ways to have discussions even when you do not agree with someone.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Never mind the principle it points to as having been violated.

There is no "principle".

If they said the resurrection occurred before 70AD, then they were wrong.

If the resurrection occurred in 70AD, then it's not wrong now to say it already occurred.

You just don't like it because you think you have a prooftext to refute preterism, but you don't.

Paul made it clear that the Rebellion had to happen before the resurrection:

(2 Thess 2:3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The "Rebellion" began in 66AD when the Jews rebelled against Rome.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Paul made it clear that the "culmination of the ages" occurred in the first century.

So this has already happened?:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 14-15).​

And this too?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-33, 41).​

It is so easy to expose your ideas as nothing but fables.
 

Danoh

New member
Danoh, do you feel you are my senior anyway? I am a grown adult who has been around a longtime. There is a civilized and an uncivilized way to rebuke people. I recognize when people need to be rebuked. There are also civilized ways to have discussions even when you do not agree with someone.

Just pointing that out to you. I was not trying to be rude there.

Consider that in the absence of face to face, you perhaps read your reaction into my words and then took that as my intent.

But there is a greater issue here. Whether or not people are wonderful with us, we each still have a responsibility to how we allow our emotions to affect us.

Philippians 4:

11. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Just depends on what we choose to focus on as to what we are going to believe - our emotions in the face of another's sleight, perceived or otherwise - or the fact that Christ has provided a means to be strengthened by Him during such moments based on how we choose to look at our emotional upheavals.

Romans 5:

1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Fact is, we are each both each other's senior and or junior in one area or another.
 

Danoh

New member
There is no "principle".

If they said the resurrection occurred before 70AD, then they were wrong.

If the resurrection occurred in 70AD, then it's not wrong now to say it already occurred.

You just don't like it because you think you have a prooftext to refute preterism, but you don't.

Paul made it clear that the Rebellion had to happen before the resurrection:

(2 Thess 2:3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The "Rebellion" began in 66AD when the Jews rebelled against Rome.

See, that is my disagreement with you. You disregard a principle Paul was basing what he reported there in 2 Tim. 2 against those two men.

You then turn around, and base your "Rebellion" assertions, not on Scripture alone, but on the "Jewish Wars" writings of a lost man, false prophet, and betrayer of his own to Rome: Josephus.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So this has already happened?:

Jerry, to save time, anytime you quote a verse from the OT and ask if it was fulfilled, my answer is YES.

Why don't you actually address what Paul said?

Paul said the "culmination of the ages" occurred in the first century.

That lines up perfectly with these other verses:

(Heb 1:2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,....

(1 Peter 1:20) ....but was revealed in these last times for your sake

(James 5:3) ...You have hoarded wealth in the last days

(1 Peter 4:7) But the end of all things is at hand;...

(1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last hour....

(Heb 9:26) ...but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


I already know how you will respond Jerry.

You'll completely ignore all the verses above, and quote a verse from the OT, and ask me if it has been fulfilled.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You disregard a principle Paul was basing what he reported there in 2 Tim. 2 against those two men.

It wasn't a "principle". You made that up.

Some false teachers were teaching that the resurrection already took place. They probably used the bodies coming out of the graves and walking into Jerusalem (Matt 27:52) as their "proof".

Paul told his audience that the resurrection hadn't taken place yet, and then told them that the "Rebellion" had to take place first.

You then turn around, and base your "Rebellion" assertions, not on Scripture alone, but on the "Jewish Wars" writings of a lost man, false prophet, and betrayer of his own to Rome: Josephus.

It all lines up perfectly with what Jesus said would happen.

I don't care if Josephus was an atheist, he was a historian, and wrote down what took place. He didn't have a bias for preterism, like you think he did.

You can't stand actual history, because it's a big problem for the books and books you have that were written by Dispensationalists (Darby followers).
 

Danoh

New member
It wasn't a "principle". You made that up.

Some false teachers were teaching that the resurrection already took place. They probably used the bodies coming out of the graves and walking into Jerusalem (Matt 27:52) as their "proof".

Paul told his audience that the resurrection hadn't taken place yet, and then told them that the "Rebellion" had to take place first.



It all lines up perfectly with what Jesus said would happen.

I don't care if Josephus was an atheist, he was a historian, and wrote down what took place. He didn't have a bias for preterism, like you think he did.

You can't stand actual history, because it's a big problem for the books and books you have that were written by Dispensationalists (Darby followers).

No. You guess the principle is not there.

Because you don't even know the resurrection that Paul has in mind there, even though he spells it out.

You cast that aside, preferring instead your "probably" this, that, the other, together with the biased, self-serving report on said Jewish Wars written by a lost man and traitor to his own Jewish people: Josephus.

He wrote of his prophecies concerning Vespasian, etc., what, way after the fact - the man was a false prophet, to boot.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry, to save time, anytime you quote a verse from the OT and ask if it was fulfilled, my answer is YES.

Then tell us when this happened:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 14-15).​

And this too:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-33, 41).​

Your delusions are getting worse and worse!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Do you even know what the mystery of the gospel is, Jerry?

Of course you now want to change the subject because your ignorance has been exposed about the fact that believers have indeed been given the stewardship to preach the gospel. You are worthless as a steward because you are not even aware of your stewardship responsibility.

I've never seen you open your mouth boldly to make it known let alone make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery so how you can call yourself a steward of anything other than your "the Greek" from your so called scholars is just you quoting a verse you know nothing about. You best just get back to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

The following in "bold" sums up the mystery of the gospel:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The mystery of the gospel is centered on the Cross. That is the source of all the good news which comes to those who believe.

And it was first revealed by Paul and that is why he says, "But now...has been made known":

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

This righteousness which is of God and has been revealed has been given to ALL who believe. It is also "apart from the law."

But you in the Neo-MAD camp are so ignorant of the mystery of the gospel that you teach that the Jewish believers who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. And that is why all of you run and hide from this verse which demonstrates that the only thing that anyone needs to do is to "believe" in order to be saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is time for you to turn on your heels and run as fast as you can from the truth found here!
 
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