ECT Rightly Dividing

[Danoh]

Maybe but their preterist disagreement with you just adds noise to the conversation where there is already enough noise. I do not agree with their understanding of rightly divided either but want to understand why they believe the way they do. From what I can gather the translation "rightly divided" stems from one word in greek and from what I can tell that word is used only once in the whole of scripture. They have developed a whole doctrine based on this foundation and I would like to see supporting scriptures to this foundation.

These issues are not studied from the Greek and personal impressions not guided by objectivity, both of which you violated.

I laid out how to study the issue out. And I based it on the passage and its surrounding passages. What more do you want.

You have some nerve - you obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about as to this issue, which you yourself did not even lay out in the manner you asked others to.

So what gives you the right [other than more dishonesty] to agree or disagree with anyone about this issue until you first solve for that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The best example of 'rightly dividing' that I know of is:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

He correctly understood The Word of God to explain what he believed as Truth.

That is one way whereby a Jew living under the law could obtain eternal life but in order to obtain it that way one had to keep the law perfectly. And no one ever did that but the lord Jesus.

Here is another way that the Jews who lived under the law could obtain eternal life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once those who lived under the law believed they received received eternal life. And the receiving of it was completely apart from law keeping.

 

[Danoh]

Back when I joined TOL in 2007 I was a Dispensationalist for about 3 years.

I was called "brother in Christ" by many of the Dispensationalists here on TOL.

These same Dispies adhere to OSAS (as do I).

Yet, now these same adherents to OSAS such as yourself say I'm going to hell.

When you guys tell me I'm going to hell, aren't you refuting OSAS by doing so?

Well, I for one have not been on here that long. Two, I have never read a post where you lay out what you believe about how one is saved, as well as what they have to do, or not, to maintain it, and or what the real issue is that confuses people about this.

Over the coarse of several weeks, some of my fellow Mid-Actsers who have been around here longer than I, repeatedly asked you why you never addressed the issue of salvation with GT as to her error. You ignored it each time.

If the above bothers you, then it is on you to lay out what your belief is on the salvation issue, together with its relevant passages, here, on this thread about "rightly dividing the word of truth" since, as Paul himself relates in 2 Timothy; salvation and or its loss or maintenance is a right division issue, Archduke's fool ignorance notwithstanding.

 

[achduke]

These issues are not studied from the Greek and personal impressions not guided by objectivity, both of which you violated.

I laid out how to study the issue out. And I based it on the passage and its surrounding passages. What more do you want.

You have some nerve - you obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about as to this issue, which you yourself did not even lay out in the manner you asked others to.

So what gives you the right [other than more dishonesty] to agree or disagree with anyone about this issue until you first solve for that.

Just because you feel I have to study with your methods does not make it so. Why not study the Greek? Most believe it is the original language the NT is written in. Some object and think Aramaic or Hebrew. I would guess it was written in all of the above. What you gave me was your method of believed ways to study and a few scripture you believed are rightly divided.

I did post a scripture about Rightly Dividing. That is just it. There is only one scripture in the NT and it may not even be translated correctly. I am looking for MAD support to show more. I may be wrong perhaps the MAD people can show me my error. Where does Paul layout the instructions to rightly divide?

All the time when I am posting someone will tell me I need to rightly divide. Show me in scripture where this process is defined. Not just man's description but where the Word lays it out.

 

[Danoh]

Just because you feel I have to study with your methods does not make it so. Why not study the Greek? Most believe it is the original language the NT is written in. Some object and think Aramaic or Hebrew. I would guess it was written in all of the above. What you gave me was your method of believed ways to study and a few scripture you believed are rightly divided.

I did post a scripture about Rightly Dividing. That is just it. There is only one scripture in the NT and it may not even be translated correctly. I am looking for MAD support to show more. I may be wrong perhaps the MAD people can show me my error. Where does Paul layout the instructions to rightly divide?

All the time when I am posting someone will tell me I need to rightly divide. Show me in scripture where this process is defined. Not just man's description but where the Word lays it out.

Where is the instruction!

Its in the passage and its surrounding ones.

Were you being sincere, you would at the very least compare what I wrote with how Paul lays out what he does in the passage and its surrounding ones.

What a typical character you are in this. You ask that others share their perspective on this issue and then you conclude its not for you without even trying it out, let alone, having understood some other way.

Very well, remain ignorant...

 

[Ktoyou]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

According to your ideas the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works but this verse says that "whosoever" believes in the Lord Jesus is saved by faith alone!

This is true, and all should know it. only those who do not so believe, shall live by the Law. By living be the Law, one believes as a Jew, as to being born a jew is not the matter here.

 

[achduke]

Where is the instruction!

Its in the passage and its surrounding ones.

Were you being sincere, you would at the very least compare what I wrote with how Paul lays out what he does in the passage and its surrounding ones.

What a typical character you are in this. You ask that others share their perspective on this issue and then you conclude its not for you without even trying it out, let alone, having understood some other way.

Very well, remain ignorant...

I have read what you said. Please understand that MAD is new to me. Before TOL I have never heard of it. What church do MAD people even belong to? I would assume an off shoot of Baptist but I am not sure. To me MAD is completely foreign. When I the read the bible I see God, His Son, His people, the history of his people and future prophecy. Some of the things you write are hard to understand. Heir is a little easier to understand.

Thank you,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To me MAD is completely foreign. When I the read the bible I see God, His Son, His people, the history of his people and future prophecy. Some of the things you write are heard to understand.

The basic premise of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is that the present "dispensation of the grace of God" began sometime during the middle of the Acts period.

Original MAD teaching is that all men throughout time have been saved by grace through faith apart from works. They also teach that Romans through Jude contains doctrine which is for those in the Body of Christ.

Later came Neo-MAD which teach that people who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works and that only the epistles from Romans through Philemon contain doctrine which is for the Body of Christ.

Those in the Neo-MAD community are wrong about "works" being required for salvation in past dispensations because this verse teaches that whosoever believes is saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Don't expect anyone from the Neo-MAD crowd to give the interpretation of the meaning of this verse. I say that it means that everyone who believes the truth of God will never perish but have eternal life.

That can only mean that "faith" is the only thing needed to obtain salvation and that applies to the Gentiles as well as the Jews who lived under the Law.

That explains why the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
what is the object of the faith that they have? Ie, did Christ need to come and do anything or does a person's faith by itself justify them from their sins?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JerryS,
what is the object of the faith that they have? Ie, did Christ need to come and do anything or does a person's faith by itself justify them from their sins?

Paul preached the following gospel to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed this gospel received life when they were born of God:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Once again this proves that Neo-MAD teaching is in error because these verses prove that "believers" receive life when they are born of God. This being born of God is apart from works.

 

[Danoh]

I have read what you said. Please understand that MAD is new to me. Before TOL I have never heard of it. What church do MAD people even belong to? I would assume an off shoot of Baptist but I am not sure. To me MAD is completely foreign. When I the read the bible I see God, His Son, His people, the history of his people and future prophecy. Some of the things you write are hard to understand. Heir is a little easier to understand.

Thank you,

I was not approaching the passage from the MAD perspective. Rather, simply from the way Paul lays those passages out there, in 2 Tim. 2:15.

Never mind. You are clearly unable to free yourself from bias going in.

Reminds me of how all the Preterists read things into another's words.

 

[Danoh]

Paul preached the following gospel to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The Jews who believed this gospel received life when they were born of God:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Once again this proves that Neo-MAD teaching is in error because these verses prove that "believers" receive life when they are born of God. This being born of God is apart from works.

No, moron, all you are proving by your decades old need to prove that you are right, is that we don't care to indulge you whether or not you are right because all you really care about is proving you alone have some sort of a handle on truth we should pay some sort of homage to, you fool.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh,
exactly what hair are you splitting?

 

[Danoh]

Danoh,
exactly what hair are you splitting?

You assume I am splitting a hair; its on you to also guess what hair that is.

 

[heir]

Of course those of the Body of Christ are stewards of the mysteries of God:

"Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God" (1 Cor.4:1).​

How is it possible for those in the Body of Christ to preach the "mystery of the gospel" if we are not made stewards of the gospel?:

"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel" (Eph.3:6-9).​

But you say that those in the Body are not made stewards of the gospel of God's grace.

Do you even know what the mystery of the gospel is, Jerry? I've never seen you open your mouth boldly to make it known let alone make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery so how you can call yourself a steward of anything other than your "the Greek" from your so called scholars is just you quoting a verse you know nothing about. You best just get back to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

 

[achduke]

I was not approaching the passage from the MAD perspective. Rather, simply from the way Paul lays those passages out there, in 2 Tim. 2:15.

Never mind. You are clearly unable to free yourself from bias going in.

Reminds me of how all the Preterists read things into another's words.

I am not sure what perspective you approach with these topics. Your replies are not clear. They are long, bounce around and are hard to follow. I am biased as everyone else is also. The one thing I do not see on TOL is love. I try to be nice as I can but the Spirit here is not one I want to stay around. Everyone is in their own pack of wolves picking off prey. Everyone here claims to follow Paul but Paul says love is everything. I appreciate esset for picking up a membership for several of us but as of this time I see no reason to reup my membership this fall.

 

[oatmeal]

What are some of the methods used to help us to rightly divide the word of truth?

 

[Danoh]

I am not sure what perspective you approach with these topics. Your replies are not clear. They are long, bounce around and are hard to follow. I am biased as everyone else is also. The one thing I do not see on TOL is love. I try to be nice as I can but the Spirit here is not one I want to stay around. Everyone is in their own pack of wolves picking off prey. Everyone here claims to follow Paul but Paul says love is everything. I appreciate esset for picking up a membership for several of us but as of this time I see no reason to reup my membership this fall.

You are telling me you have never taken apart anything in your life in order to see what held it all together, and how, and also, how each part contributed to the whole, attempting to discern from all that dissecting, what general rules of thumb as to how it all worked, it all appeared to be pointing back to?

And you might want to put down your search in a Greek word for a moment and simply read, and take Paul's advice in 2 Timothy 2 about who and or what you are to look to for your "love."

Sooner or later, we can only disappoint one another.

Also, look at how not so nice, Paul is in his description there, of the words of Hymenaeus and Philetus - as much like a disease; capable of spreading worse and worse.

I'll leave you with these words from Paul to Timothy in that very chapter:

1. Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

That too is a right division issue, as - everything is a right division issue!

Ecclesiastes 3:

1. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

 

[Interplanner]

As you can see from the context of 'rightly handling' it has to do first with the wrangling over words that is an unproductive way of studying. The verse has nothing to do with D'ism, for or against. 2nd, it has to do with 'godless chatter.' (I with there were some examples of what he meant). But on the whole it sounds like the passage from Corinthians where some people spend their time building with clay, stone and wood instead of find metal.

 

[Interplanner]

What are some of the methods used to help us to rightly divide the word of truth?

Oatmeal,
my #199 was supposed to be a reply.

So the verse has nothing to do with finding major time distinctions God has created for history.

If you want to study that and study where the passage itself says it is about that, you want to be especially in Gal 3 where v8 tells us what God announced ahead of time, and what the Scripture foresaw. It also contains v17 in which Judaism tried to replace the Promise with the Gospel. There is no other entity out there that Paul could be referring to.