Reverse Terrorism?

[fool]

Excellent review of the whole situation, imo.

Much obliged.

We are told that two cladding products were available, and that the authorities chose the one that was £2.50p less expensive per panel, or maybe per M2.

A reasonable choice when one has a lot of building to clad.

There are scores of Tower blocks in Britain with the same cladding, same signs, same lack of sprinklers and fire equipment..... at least, there were last week.

Hopefully the populace has awoken and is not just done the bare minimum but educated them selves.
In the U.S. we have fire drills. We set off the alarms and vacate the building just so we know that we know how and that the doors work.

And yes, the Fire commissioner's reports were very loud, forced, determined as she explained what her force had done, and was doing. Fire officers checked and approved this block recently.

Those fire officers should be in the stocks.
They utterly failed at one simple job.

I really would not want to the architect, planning authority, building inspector, contractor, sub contractor, fire officer who had anything to do with this.

As far as the contractors go perhaps there's some meat there but in the U.S. the Architect approves all the materials. And inspects to make sure the materials are installed per specifications. I'm sure there's a cost/benefit analysis that plays into choosing materials longevity vs. flammability but the Architect would be relying on the Manufactures literature for those values. In the U.S. we have standardized testing for building materials with the flame spread and smoke rating expressed in consistent numbers for everything that goes into a building.
Do you have that over there?

 

[fool]

but I would often see the c-in-c visitors when I returned keys to the c-in-c offices, and these untrained, inadequate nasty scumbags would joke with each other about how they took the mickey out of her when they called to hers and others' flats.

Can you translate for the Yanks on this?
A Flat is an apartment, but what is "Take the Mickey" out of someone?
What does that entail?

The World is full of ignorant nasty people, and I still haven't really got used to it.

Of that there is no doubt. But as long as we keep debating it on the internet everything will keep going down the middle of the road.

 

[eider]

Much obliged.
A reasonable choice when one has a lot of building to clad.

Fair enough, but I have heard that the most expensive product had a better Fire-test report. However, there'll be loads of bricks getting chucked everywhere just now.

Hopefully the populace has awoken and is not just done the bare minimum but educated them selves.
In the U.S. we have fire drills. We set off the alarms and vacate the building just so we know that we know how and that the doors work.

I forgot...... There were no Fire Alarms anywhere in the building. And no auto-close doors. And the windows are bottom hinged/open-in and all were open on that warm night.
Truly if this kind of event was written into a fiction novel most readers would accuse the author of over-reaching the fiction.

Those fire officers should be in the stocks. They utterly failed at one simple job.

As far as the contractors go perhaps there's some meat there but in the U.S. the Architect approves all the materials. And inspects to make sure the materials are installed per specifications. I'm sure there's a cost/benefit analysis that plays into choosing materials longevity vs. flammability but the Architect would be relying on the Manufactures literature for those values. In the U.S. we have standardized testing for building materials with the flame spread and smoke rating expressed in consistent numbers for everything that goes into a building. Do you have that over there?

Yes...... For over 60 years building materials have had 'fire-resistant' 'fire-check' values. Even during the 60's composite fire-exit doors had HHFC (half-hour fire check) or HFC values etc , and products like ceiling tiles had fire-resistant values. Who would have thought that in 2017 such a disgusting and dreadful incident could take place?

 

[eider]

Can you translate for the Yanks on this?
A Flat is an apartment, but what is "Take the Mickey" out of someone?
What does that entail?

Sorry......
c-in-c = care in the community.
Back in the 80's Prime Minister Thatcher (to save £zillions)had all the expensive huge mental hospitals closed down (they were as big as small towns) and most of the mental patients were discharged.
In delightful (shocking?) Orwellian 'double-think' this process was called 'Care in the Community'.

And 'Taking the Mickey' is what I just did to PM Thatcher's ideas about care for the disabled.

Of that there is no doubt. But as long as we keep debating it on the internet everything will keep going down the middle of the road.

Fair enough......

 

[eider]

I'm not actually actively involved in care work as yet but I'm more than aware of abuse and malpractice that can sometimes go on unfortunately. What you describe is not only abuse but blatant breach of confidentiality as well as gross misconduct. Thankfully there's more recognition for this kind of crap lately and any sort of malignant gossip is clamped down on although it will still go on if under the radar unfortunately.

It will never cease.
No matter how much trainers and supervisors rant and wail at staff about bullying, privacy, best-practice etc etc....... a % of scumbags will eventually get caught doing bad things that they were instructed and trained 'not to do'.

But on a cynical up-note, this does mrean that anybody who wants to can work for ever and ever, catching them out and getting them out.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It will never cease.
No matter how much trainers and supervisors rant and wail at staff about bullying, privacy, best-practice etc etc....... a % of scumbags will eventually get caught doing bad things that they were instructed and trained 'not to do'.

But on a cynical up-note, this does mrean that anybody who wants to can work for ever and ever, catching them out and getting them out.

Unfortunately, and on a very cynical note, not everybody who goes into care work does so for altruistic reasons. For a sociopath, the vulnerable in society can present a very easy target. We were even talking about this today at the care centre, how assessors are always going to be needed and I brought up our discussion on here. Looks like I may be starting training for it...

 

[eider]

Unfortunately, and on a very cynical note, not everybody who goes into care work does so for altruistic reasons. For a sociopath, the vulnerable in society can present a very easy target. We were even talking about this today at the care centre, how assessors are always going to be needed and I brought up our discussion on here. Looks like I may be starting training for it...

That will be a very interesting, deeply involved, highly necessary career.
Whether you like the concept or not, work carried out in a spirit of servioe to the community is equal in status to prayer.

So you're going to be a specialised detective and investigator, detecting badness in the present and investigating badness that occured in the past.

I trained commercial detectives for over 15 years, and met with many many detectives covering specialised fields such as CQC (Care Quality Commission for USA readers). There were so many amazing people. One lady worked for a charity, identifying 'teenage-runners' and getting them either to safety or to home. She worked the Kings Cross district, mostly around the St Pancras and Kings Cross Stations.

All (good and unprejudiced) detectives get sensitive to special 'Tells' which help in their jobs. This woman could watch a train load disembark and pick out the clever 'runners' before they reached the barriers. Clever runners might even go up to a total stranger, start up a 'nice' conversation and take hold of stranger's hand in order to look like a legit daughter and walk clear the station. All kinds of amazing alter-egos. That woman must have saved thousands, literally thousands, over the years. She liked Carp-fishing, Arthur. I'll bet she was good at that 'n all.

They won't teach you any 'tells', I would expect...... those will become your own sp[ecial property.

 

[Stripe]

It's not "reverse" terrorism. It's just terrorism.

It is important to judge people based on their words and actions, not by where they come from, what color they are or their religion.

 

[Stripe]

Aren't you from Wales? Somewhere with a long name?

Spoiler

 

[musterion]

It's not "reverse" terrorism. It's just terrorism.

It is important to judge people based on their words and actions, not by where they come from, what color they are or their religion.

Not when a group's most perfect example of a man taught and practiced lying, conquest, slavery, rape and murder, and ordered his followers to go and do likewise.

 

[Stripe]

Not when a group's most perfect example of a man taught and practiced lying, conquest, slavery, rape and murder, and ordered his followers to go and do likewise.

Uh, sure it is. A way to convince people not to follow such a religion is not to drive cars into them. That's terrorism.

 

[musterion]

Uh, sure it is. A way to convince people not to follow such a religion is not to drive cars into them. That's terrorism.

You said,

It is important to judge people based on...their religion

You're too intelligent to be that foolish. In the case of Mohammedanism -- jihad and taquiyya in pursuit of worldwide sharia, done in the name of Mohammed -- that separation is not possible BECAUSE it comes straight from Mohammed. They're simply following the instructions of Allah's perfect man.

 

[patrick jane]

Looks like I may be starting training for it...

Are you finally getting out of the unemployment line and off welfare? :chuckle:

 

[Stripe]

You said. You're too intelligent to be that foolish. In the case of Mohammedanism -- jihad and taquiyya in pursuit of worldwide sharia, done in the name of Mohammed -- that separation is not possible BECAUSE it comes straight from Mohammed. They're simply following the instructions of Allah's perfect man.

I'm not sure you parsed my sentence correctly.




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[Stripe]

Are you finally getting out of the unemployment line and off welfare? :chuckle:

:rotfl:

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[musterion]

I'm not sure you parsed my sentence correctly.

If I read you wrong, I think you know I'll apologize if it's explained correctly to me. As it is, what you stated - from which I quoted - ONLY works with Islam IF someone is able to infallibly tell truly "peaceful" Muslims from jihad-supporting, sharia-seeking, taquiyya-practicing Mohammedans. Failing that, one is a fool not to assume the worst because too many people are DEAD because of Islamists whose neighbors swore, "But I thought he/she was one of the good ones!"

 

[Stripe]

If I read you wrong, I think you know I'll apologize.

I'm not sure if the ellipsis you used was to indicate that your focus on my comment was as if I had said "we should judge a man by his religion" or if the ellipsis was just to indicate the entire paragraph.

We can only judge people by their words and actions. Nothing else. We can't judge them by what religion they hold to (although that will likely involve them speaking).

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[musterion]

I'm not sure if the ellipsis you used was to indicate that your focus on my comment was as if I had said "we should [NOT] judge a man by his religion"

Mainly, that -- that we can't afford NOT to judge Muslims by their religion AS COMMANDED AND PRACTICED BY MOHAMMED HIMSELF.

As I said, every single "sudden jihadist" living in the West had several Western friends and neighbors who were utterly shocked to learn they were planning murder, and disbelieved first reports than the "peaceful" Muslim they knew had murdered people.

In short...if someone's religion condones and promotes murder in order to further that religion, we damn well can and should judge its adherents according to it.

 

[Stripe]

Mainly, that -- that we can't afford NOT to judge Muslims by their religion AS COMMANDED AND PRACTICED BY MOHAMMED HIMSELF.

As I said, every single "sudden jihadist" living in the West had several Western friends and neighbors who were utterly shocked to learn they were planning murder, and disbelieved first reports than the "peaceful" Muslim they knew had murdered people.

In short...if someone's religion condones and promotes murder in order to further that religion, we damn well can and should judge its adherents according to it.

I think I only disagree on a semantic level.

Of course we should judge the religion; that is a set of statements that can be analyzed. My concern is that we should not condemn a man solely because his affiliation is Muslim. We would need to hear from him on the issues, not rely on a label.

In the same way, we should not assume that everyone who calls themself a Christian is above board.

And OP describes an act of terrorism.

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[rocketman]

In the same way, we should not assume that everyone who calls themself a Christian is above board.

I agree with this statement totally, there have been many in the past, even now, that have perverted & twisted Christianity up to, & including violence against others so, all things being equal I agree that the label alone is not enough to pass broad brush judgement upon all.