REPORT: Nicer Than God - By Bob Enyart

[Nathon Detroit]

If you find them silly, then so be it. I don't find them silly because I believe they are valid and very important.

I think all that Clete is saying is that several really good responses have been made to some of your points and continuing to debate some of this is kinda silly.

It's seems pretty obvious that:
A. You are addressing a different issue than the topic of this thread.
and...
B. You are ignoring the responses that are being made to your objections.

Again, one CANNOT have one without the other. In other words, if you are instructed to judge, but then the part about when to STOP judging & how to control the judging towards other Christians is left out, I believe that is where the PROBLEM begins and comes to fruition in the points that I keep making.

Great point. It does take wisdom to judge rightly.

Biblical judging is NOT a small task or something to be taken lightheartedly. Does one simply instruct someone on how to get a vehicle moving in a straight line but then neglects to tell them on how to safely navigate and operate that vehicle in a safe and defensive manner so that they don't injure or kill themselves or others? Of course not.

Well, if all the world thinks that the vehicle should remain parked and never move, then a good start would be to tell the world that the vehicle can indeed move! (hence this article)

So, what has happened is that some have taken this route and do not know how or when to stop judging and the go from righteous judgment to unrighteous judgment against other Christians. That important part was left out of the instructions.

It's unfortunate that you have had trouble with someone that you feel judges wrongly but this topic/post/article is aimed at those that preach you shouldn't judge at all.

I understand that the article is NOT an exhaustive study on Christian behavior. Like I said before, I agree with most of it, but I do believe that VITAL points are left out. These vital points are essential to getting a complete and proper picture of the theology behind Biblical judgment.

Fair enough.

You feel that it is NOT essential to have those dozens of verses that Paul instructs and pleads with believers on how to treat and react to other believers. That is wrong!

I specifically addressed this objection ion an earlier post and frankly I believe I made a really good point. The verses you reference are assuming "all things are equal" or assuming that everyone is behaving in a fair and reasonable way.

Yet.....

I gave you examples of Old Testament, New Testament, characters that did not act meek or gentle and for good reason! Therefore we can be sure that the verses you referenced cannot be applied universally or without boundary.

Again, I ask you why did Paul get arrested so many times? Why didn't he act more "gentle" more "meek"? Why did Paul instruct us to rebuke sinners so harshly that all those listening would also fear?

The answer is that every situation is different.

To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;
A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to throw away;
A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;
A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace. - Ecclesiastes 3:1-8​

Yet some folks would have us believe that there is never a time to hate, and there is never a time for war, and that there is never a time to kill. Those people are being "nicer than God".

For your arming someone with a important task that should not be taken lightly or haphazardly. Then you leave out the most important keys that IN GRACE we are to approach other believers in certain ways. When you focus on the LAW (the 4 gospels and the OT), then it paints a SKEWED picture of judging. If you BALANCED it by talking about the dozens of verses that Paul speaks of, then these unrighteous judgment ISSUES would NOT be happening. The problem is that THEY ARE HAPPENING & I believe the problem goes back to not having the numerous verses of proper Grace "etiquette" that Paul speaks of that we should have from one believer to another.

Again, that's true ONLY if the fellow believer isn't deserving of rebuke. Do you agree?

Again I ask, as one dispensational brother to another Mid-Acts brother, WHY WERE THEY LEFT OUT OF THE ARTICLE???

Again, this article is aimed for people who think there is NEVER a time for rebuke.

Could you at least acknowledge that I have responded to your objection?

DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL GET A SKEWED & INCORRECT VIEW OF JUDGING DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE NUMEROUS GRACE PASSAGES OF CHRISTIAN TO CHRISTIAN CONDUCT WERE LEFT OUT??

Sure, I suppose it's possible.

Now, that I answered in a direct and honest way, let me ask you.....

Do you believe that it is a problem in mainstream Christianity that too many Christians act "nicer than God" would act? i.e., they would be more forgiving, more merciful, less judgmental than God instructs us in the Bible?

 

[Prisca]

A Delicate Balance

A Delicate Balance

Hi Pettrix,

In an earlier post, you quoted the following:

Ephesians 2:15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

Later, Paul goes on to say:

Ephesians 4:25-27 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.

It sounds to me as though you are having trouble with Christians who take verse 25 too seriously and too lightly at the same time. It is a delicate balance to speak the truth, to be angry righteously, and still refrain from sinning. Is this the case? Or am I misinterpreting you?

 

[elected4ever]

Hi Pettrix,

In an earlier post, you quoted the following:

Ephesians 2:15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

Later, Paul goes on to say:

Ephesians 4:25-27 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.

It sounds to me as though you are having trouble with Christians who take verse 25 too seriously and too lightly at the same time. It is a delicate balance to speak the truth, to be angry righteously, and still refrain from sinning. Is this the case? Or am I misinterpreting you?

I do not believe the word sin should be there but the true meaning of the word, miss the mark. As lone as we understand that the word sin is to miss the mark and not being a contrarian to God. “Be angry, and do not miss the mark”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.[/I]

We ought not to harbor resentment. There is certain activity that should make us angry and we ought to judge it. We are missing the mark when that activity is not judged and confronted. How can one get angry if one does not judge. The missing of the mark is not the anger but the non confrontation of the evil activity. Our instruction is to confront and not to cower in the face of evil.

 

[Pettrix]

Knight -

Yes, you have responded to my objection.

The article deals with just the issue of Christians who do think there is never a time for rebuke.

Yes, there is a problem in mainstream Christianity, as they are more forgiving, more merciful, & less judgmental than God instructs us in the Bible to be.

I believe that if the article alone is used without any reference of Paul's Grace "etiquette" that Paul speaks of that we should have from one believer to another, that can and does cause issues where Christians judge wrongly and without due cause. A more balanced picture could have been presented by using at least 1/2 of the dozen+ verses that Paul tells believers on how to act towards other believers.

 

[Clete]

DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL GET A SKEWED & INCORRECT VIEW OF JUDGING DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE NUMEROUS GRACE PASSAGES OF CHRISTIAN TO CHRISTIAN CONDUCT WERE LEFT OUT??

No, Pettrix, I don't! Believers are deluged with the grace passages all the time! To suspect that this single article by a pastor most people have never heard of before is going to overwhelm the nearly ubiquitous "be nice to everyone" message that most Christians get every Sunday from their home pulpits is just a little crazy. The article is intended to provoke someone to question the teaching they are getting from every conceivable direction, not to replace the Bible or to serve as anything that could even remotely be considered an exhaustive or even thorough study on the subject of how Christians should handle their personal interactions. It simply is presenting the other side of the coin, sort of speak; the Biblical information that people aren't getting from mainstream Christian teachers and that's all it was intended for.

And, in addition to all of that, even if there are certain individuals who read that article and take it as permission to go and start slugging people over the head with their Bibles, going completely overboard and just judging the pants off of everyone they can find any fault with whatsoever, then I say, and this is my own personal opinion, that such a person is better off than is the person who is nice to the murder, the adulterer, the rapist and the child molester. I'd much rather a person be too salty than not salty at all.

Further, your main argument is that immature Christians should not judge. I disagree. They should judge. To get good at something like discerning right from wrong takes practice. Immature Christian will makes mistakes to be sure, but who doesn't? They will hurt someone's feelings unnecessarily, but who doesn't? They will even do things that some might use as excuse to reject Christ, but who doesn't? The point is that they will learn from their mistakes and I'd rather someone cause someone to perish by having tried to to the right thing and failed than for them to have caused someone to perish by having successfully sat on their hands and done nothing. Of course the ideal would be for them not to have caused anyone to perish but we don't live in a perfect world nor are we perfect. The mainstream Christian teaching about judging has removed us from the game. We are being defeated by our own lack of action and as Bob Enyart likes to point out, when good people do nothing, Satan gets to take a vacation.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Pettrix]

Hi Pettrix,

In an earlier post, you quoted the following:

Ephesians 2:15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

Later, Paul goes on to say:

Ephesians 4:25-27 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.

It sounds to me as though you are having trouble with Christians who take verse 25 too seriously and too lightly at the same time. It is a delicate balance to speak the truth, to be angry righteously, and still refrain from sinning. Is this the case? Or am I misinterpreting you?

The article talks about judging and the lack thereof by some Christians. Which I agree with. Here is where I disagree. Using mostly Scripture references from the 4 gospels and the OT, it does not give a balanced view of judging, as TODAY in the Age of Grace, Paul throws in something that was NOT present in the 4 gospels or the OT, as those were LAW dispensational programs.

Leaving that part out is like discussing water baptism, tongues, healing, etc., and then using the 4 gospels & OT to prove that they are for today, and leaving the Pauline epistles out.

Becky -

Yes, it is a delicate balance to speak the truth, to be angry righteously, and still refrain from sinning. That is the problem and like I pointed out in my 3 points:

Comments made from one believer to another believer:
1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.

2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.

3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work are not Christians.

Now, is that righteous judgment? Or is that unrighteous judging, harsh, and one who does not know how to control their tongue and uses it to hurt other believers?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I can't add to, or say it any better, than Clete has just articulated. :up:

 

[Nick M]

Should we speak nicely of Adolph Hitler? If not, why?

 

[elected4ever]

Should we speak nicely of Adolph Hitler? If not, why?

Sure, without Hitler we wouldn't know what the Neo Cons and liberals are up too. The actions are evil whether by Hitler or us.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Pettrix, you stated....

For your arming someone with a important task that should not be taken lightly or haphazardly. Then you leave out the most important keys that IN GRACE we are to approach other believers in certain ways. When you focus on the LAW (the 4 gospels and the OT), then it paints a SKEWED picture of judging. If you BALANCED it by talking about the dozens of verses that Paul speaks of, then these unrighteous judgment ISSUES would NOT be happening. The problem is that THEY ARE HAPPENING & I believe the problem goes back to not having the numerous verses of proper Grace "etiquette" that Paul speaks of that we should have from one believer to another.

And then I asked the follow-up question...

That's true ONLY if the fellow believer isn't deserving of rebuke. Do you agree?

I was wondering if we agreed on that.

 

[Pettrix]

Pettrix, you stated....And then I asked the follow-up question...

That's true ONLY if the fellow believer isn't deserving of rebuke. Do you agree?

I was wondering if we agreed on that.

It is a case-by-case basis. If your Christian brother has a gambling problem, you find out about, do you confront him and state, "repent you evil, vile & wicked sinner." Or do you approach him with meekness and love, like Paul states to, and then tell him they are WRONG for doing that/sinning and that God's Word instructs them on how to AVOID that sin. If they continue to sin without shame and without an attempt to stop, then they can be dealt with in a stronger/harsher means.

There is not a broad "general" way of dealing with Believer to Believer, in regards to "rebuke". It all depends what they are doing.

After the Apostle Paul had advised the Corinthians to break fellowship with the fornicator in their midst in I Corinthians 5, he was delighted to hear that they had followed his instructions. However, he was now dismayed to learn that they were refusing to restore fellowship to the man after he repented! And so Paul says to them,

2 Corinthians 2:6-7
"Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow"

The reason Paul urged them to re-admit the man into their assembly was because he knew that the man needed their fellowship and they needed his. Paul knew that fellowship is important, and to show these Corinthians just how important it was, he then went on to describe how he had "no rest" apart from the fellowship of Titus.

The fornicating man that was spoken of in I Corinthians. The man, at that time, was a fornicator who was having sex with his father’s wife, which of course was the fornicator’s step-mom!

The Corinthians were doing many other doctrinally incorrect things. They were holding to numerous other false doctrines. For example; they were taking other Believers to court in front of unbelievers instead of trying to resolve the issues themselves. They were abusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The pride of their learning had also carried many of them so far as to disbelieve or dispute against the doctrine of the resurrection! (I Cor. 6:9-20) The list can go on and on. One can read for themselves of all the false doctrines that they were believing and practicing. Yet, we just have one mention of this fornicator who was openly having sex with his step-mom, of being rebuked & removed. Then he was allowed back after he changed his ways!

Now, rebuking on believer to another believer:

1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.

2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.

3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work are not Christians.


IS THAT RIGHT??

 

[PKevman]

Should we speak nicely of Adolph Hitler? If not, why?

According to Univeralists like Red77 we will be spending eternity fellowshiping with him, so we better go ahead and practice now. :think:

 

[PKevman]

1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.

2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.

3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work are not Christians.

Do you have a specific example in mind? Does it go to the public school discussion?

 

[Delmar]

According to Univeralists like Red77 we will be spending eternity fellowshiping with him, so we better go ahead and practice now. :think:

WOW!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It is a case-by-case basis. If your Christian brother has a gambling problem, you find out about, do you confront him and state, "repent you evil, vile & wicked sinner." Or do you approach him with meekness and love, like Paul states to, and then tell him they are WRONG for doing that/sinning and that God's Word instructs them on how to AVOID that sin. If they continue to sin without shame and without an attempt to stop, then they can be dealt with in a stronger/harsher means.

Ahh... so what you are opposed to is a certain style of rebuke right?

It isn't that you are opposed to rebuke so much it's just that you don't like certain types and styles of rebuke. I can understand that, there are certain styles that don't appeal to me either.

There is not a broad "general" way of dealing with Believer to Believer, in regards to "rebuke".It all depends what they are doing.

True, but we should always rebuke a sinning brother even if we disagree on what style of rebuke should be used.

The article that this thread is based on demonstrates that mainstream Christianity doesn't even want to rebuke the sinning brother regardless of the approach or style used.

After the Apostle Paul had advised the Corinthians to break fellowship with the fornicator in their midst in I Corinthians 5, he was delighted to hear that they had followed his instructions. However, he was now dismayed to learn that they were refusing to restore fellowship to the man after he repented! And so Paul says to them,

2 Corinthians 2:6-7
"Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow"

The reason Paul urged them to re-admit the man into their assembly was because he knew that the man needed their fellowship and they needed his. Paul knew that fellowship is important, and to show these Corinthians just how important it was, he then went on to describe how he had "no rest" apart from the fellowship of Titus.

The fornicating man that was spoken of in I Corinthians. The man, at that time, was a fornicator who was having sex with his father’s wife, which of course was the fornicator’s step-mom!

The Corinthians were doing many other doctrinally incorrect things. They were holding to numerous other false doctrines. For example; they were taking other Believers to court in front of unbelievers instead of trying to resolve the issues themselves. They were abusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The pride of their learning had also carried many of them so far as to disbelieve or dispute against the doctrine of the resurrection! (I Cor. 6:9-20) The list can go on and on. One can read for themselves of all the false doctrines that they were believing and practicing. Yet, we just have one mention of this fornicator who was openly having sex with his step-mom, of being rebuked & removed. Then he was allowed back after he changed his ways!

Who disagrees with that??? Seriously, I want to know if you know anyone who disagrees with what you just posted above.

And how does that apply to this topic? Again, that would be a case of believers being "meaner than God" not "nicer than God".

Lets assume for sake of argument that the Corinthians DIDN'T break fellowship with the fornicator, lets assume they decided to tolerate his sin and accept him the way he was (an unrepentant sinner) if that were the case (like it is in most major churches today) then they would have been acting nicer than God, do you agree?

Now, rebuking on believer to another believer:

1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.

That sounds like hyperbole. Or at very least a statement taken out of context. I don't know anyone who makes a broad claim like that do you?

Believer #1: Hey I want to make a difference in peoples lives! :angel:
Believer #2: You can't make a difference in ANYONES life!!! :madmad:

Sorry, but that conversation strikes me as improbable or incomplete. :idunno:

2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.

Again, that strikes me as pure hyperbole and incomplete.

Why would anyone (believer are not) say anyone shouldn't help less-fortunate kids? Is there more to this story? Maybe there is a reason that the help that was offered to the less-fortunate kids was immoral or poorly planned? Is that possible?

3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work are not Christians.

That depends on the line of work doesn't it?

If I told you that I made my living selling crack cocaine I would hope hat you would rebuke me and attack my profession.

 

[red77]

According to Univeralists like Red77 we will be spending eternity fellowshiping with him, so we better go ahead and practice now. :think:

Would you have such a problem with that if he had repented and come to a knowledge of the truth? according to the eternal tormentalists not only Hitler but millions of the victims of nazism, concentration camps, molestation, murder, rape etc etc etc will be rotting alongside him in hell.... :rain:

 

[Clete]

Would you have such a problem with that if he had repented and come to a knowledge of the truth? according to the eternal tormentalists not only Hitler but millions of the victims of nazism, concentration camps, molestation, murder, rape etc etc etc will be rotting alongside him in hell.... :rain:

And deservingly so.

 

[red77]

And deservingly so.

words are very cheap when it comes to the suffering of others...... lain:

 

[CRASH]

words are very cheap when it comes to the suffering of others...... lain:

Not really. The Lord gave His innocent life for them and they rejected His free gift.

 

[Stripe]

Wait a minute. On that other thread you're claiming your god loves Hitler....