We arent talking about a baby being physically ripped apart here Mystery, you may as well drop that line because I am totally against that....
REPORT: Nicer Than God - By Bob Enyart
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
We arent talking about a baby being physically ripped apart here Mystery, you may as well drop that line because I am totally against that....
Mystery
New member
You have a more "humane" way of murder?
If a woman who has just been raped takes what I think is the plan9 drug or something similar then it stops any even possible conception within a few hours, like i've already said I am no fan of a woman taking such an action but i am not going to stand in condemnation of any woman who does after being through such an ordeal, it is hardly the same thing as a physical foetus being ripped apart with metal rods
Mystery
New member
I don't want to really get into this with you now, but that pill is designed to prevent the new life from attaching to the uterus. Still an abortion.
I know I have read this article before.. I just can't seem to figure out where. I went to the website where I thought it was, but it's not there now.. he's revamped his website though and so it's not arranged the way it was .. I wish I could find it. He's written much on God's Criminal Justice System. I really like it. I actually met him and his wife when we were living in California. Godly people. I don't know.. maybe it wasn't his website. Maybe it was David Cloud's site. But I know I've seen this before. I didn't know it was by Bob Enyart though.
I like it.
I like it.
Yes, I am talking about a "specific" but the general concept is there.
It comes down to some people who are making strong and harsh criticisms against other believers by using general statements against them.
For instance, would these statements below meet the criteria that the Apostle Paul instructed believers to use towards other believers? From one believer to another believer in Christ:
1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.
2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.
3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work most are not Christians.
These are all interesting points and worthy of discussion, but also off topic.
This thread is about people (namely Christians) who preach a version of God that is "nicer" then the God that is described in the Bible.
I assume you agree that is a major problem?
God is love, how is it possible to preach a version of God that the bible explicitly describes as love? Cor 13 describes what love actually is, no-one is denying that God has wrath, anger, justice but that these are all attributes of his love, it's not about trying to be 'nicer' than God because that would be impossible wouldn't it?
Is it not also a problem when christians use mockery and condescension towards people with no faith to the extent of calling people homosexuals and molestors? how on earth would this bring anyone closer to a belief in God?
Of course not!
And you illustrate the point perfectly because you don't know the different between "love" and "niceness".
Ask TOL member LOVEMEORHATEME.
So a human being can be nicer than God? Can he be more loving than God? No, of course he can't because a human being is not love, God is and the definition of love as outlined in 1 Cor 13 means that wrath, anger, justice are a part of that love, I'm well aware of the difference between being 'nice' and being 'loving' although the two obviously aren't mutually excusive, 'phoney' niceness is as bad as 'phoney' love, it's false, in which case i still fail to see how a human being can be even nicer than God.....
Ask TOL member LOVEMEORHATEME.
Perhaps i should clarify, LMOHM had admitted to being homosexual and was involved with many debates on here as memory serves,
My point to you was that to use condescension and mockery to the extent of calling other posters homosexuals and molestors should have no place in christian dialogue when there is no substantiation for it at all, is that not fair comment?
They are really not off topic.
I do understand about the point that is trying to be made. I agree with it "mostly" but do find some serious problems intermingled within. Those problems are reflected in those references I made in my last post. That is why they are not off-topic. If Christians do & say those things to other Christians (those 3 points I mentioned), that is wrong, sinful and causes division.
As far as being "nicer than God". That statement is self-contradicting. The reason is simple. First of all, NOBODY can really be nicer than God. God is absolute love. NOBODY can or ever will, love more than God can and does.
Christians can be contradictory to God and His Word in their actions and reactions to certain behaviors. For example, the Christians who embrace the murderer and do not want swift and just punishment for the murderers crime. Christians who show forgiveness when at times we should not forgive the evil doer. That is wrong.
This does not make one "nicer than God" but makes their world view and Christian theology INCORRECT with God's theology. They do not become nicer than God, because that is impossible, as God is absolute love. They re-act incorrectly and hold to a bad Christian world view.
So, would you agree that the statements below DO NOT meet the criteria that the Apostle Paul instructed believers to use towards other believers?
1 - Stating that you as a believer, cannot make a single difference in anyones life, therefore your efforts are a waste of time and fruitless.
2 - Stating that you are evil and wicked because you choose to help less-fortunate kids.
3 - Ridiculing a believer and attacking their profession simply because most in that line of work most are not Christians.
It seems to me that you are addressing Christians that are "meaner than God", yet this thread is about Christians who are "nicer than God", do you have any comment about that?
Wow... I strongly disagree. :shocked:
A Christian who says we "shouldn't judge" is being "nicer" than God because God commands that we judge.
A Christian who says that we should not execute capital criminals is being "nicer than God" because God commands that we execute capital criminals.
A Christian who preaches that we should hate the sin and love the sinner is being "nicer than God" because God says that for as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
A Christian who says we should "love everyone" is being "nicer than God" because God says that loving what is evil makes true love hypocritical.
I could go on, and on, and on.... there are literally hundreds of examples of ways that people act "nicer than God.
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Knight, I hope we are just doing a friendly debate,
if not, I don't want it to be taken wrongly or go to another level. You know what I mean. Please let me know.... Knight, I agree that many Christians DO NOT know how to judge right from wrong and are too wishy-washy. I would term it rather that they have an incorrect or flawed Christian world view. Their theology on judging is off kilter.
Here is where we are missing each others points. God is NOT "mean", so in essence, NOBODY can ever be "meaner than God". As that is not possible due to the fact that God is not mean. Therefore, the phrase is contradictory. God is righteous in His judgment. We can and do commit evil but that does not mean that we are meaner than God because God is never mean.
Meaner than God -
1 - God is not mean.
2 - One cannot ever be "meaner" than God because of point #1.
3 - Therefore the phrase becomes null & void.
Nicer than God -
1 - God is absolute love.
2 - One cannot ever be "nicer" than God because of point #1.
Getting back to point of "nicer than God". Christians can and do show peace and love, when anger and judgment should be shown. This does NOT make them "nicer than God" but it makes them have a bad theology and an incorrect Christian world view.
So we both AGREE on this but were we differ is the terminology used. I just don't think "nicer than God" is the correct way of putting it as it puts the thought across that one can actually show more love than God, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY, as God is absolute love.
So a Christian who loves the murderer and does not want them to be executed is NOT being "nicer than God", they have a wrong theology/Christian world view. Even though they show love when anger should be shown, this DOES NOT make them "nicer" than God but makes them INCORRECT in their reactions.
The main point I am trying to make is that righteous Biblical judging is something that in the hands of the immature Believer becomes a train wreck. Where they draw the line from judging righteously to becoming arrogant, offensive & attacking other Believers, is where the problems start.
It's like calling a spade a spade. If you murder someone, you are a wicked evil murderer and should be put to death. :execute:
Now, if a Christian to another saved Christian tells them that they cannot make a single difference in anyones life by showing them who God is and His love and their efforts are a waste of time and fruitless, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
If a Christian to another Christian tells them that they are evil and wicked because they choose to help less-fortunate kids, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
If a Christian to another Christian ridicules them and attacks their profession simply because most in that line of work most are not Christians, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
I hope you agree with me on these points. Do you??
You see, judging is something that should be done by those who are capable of understanding where God wants (His Word) believers to judge. If they get past point A, they must be spiritually mature enough to know when and where to draw the line. When judging one believer to another believer on generalities, like the above points I made, then it goes from righteous judgment to unrighteous judgment.
As I keep stating, I have NO issues with judging evil. Where I have issues is when these same people don't know WHEN TO STOP judging and they become this out of control train where they bulldoze other Christians because they don't have the ability, knowledge or spiritual maturity to STOP judging. They flip this "judging switch" in their minds and mouths and keep going at it, in doing so they become rude, offensive, attacking, demeaning, etc. towards other believers in Christ.
In their minds they don't believe they are doing anything wrong because nobody ever tells them & they lack the spiritual ability to know that they are doing wrong.
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Of course!
What does any of that have to do with the "Nicer Than God" article?
The article doesn't suggest that we should be meaner than God, just that we shouldn't be nicer than He is.
Then you agree with Enyart that we should judge and that those who do not do so are immature in their faith and acting unbiblically, right?
Have you found a single person anywhere who disagrees with that? Who are you debating here?
Which do you suppose is the more rampant problem in the church today; Christians judging too much or Christians not judging at all?
"Nicer Than God" was written specifically because the "Judge Not" attitude was virtually ubiquitous throughout the church in America. Fortunately through the efforts of men like Bob Enyart, I think I have seen a trend in the other direction and while there is no question that some, especially when they are new to the idea of it, go overboard but overall I'd say the increase in Christians being willing to speak their mind regardless of who gets their feelings hurt is a good thing, a very good thing.
Well once again the article addresses the issue of being "Nicer Than God" and it addresses the issue by quoting dozens of passages of Scripture which direct us to worry more about being truthful and less about who gets their toes stepped on which is good advice for any Christian whether they are young in the faith or not. And as that it the case, I see no reason why you should have a single thing to say in criticism of that article or its author.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Judging CORRECTLY and JUSTLY and RIGHTEOUSLY. When there is blatant evil, or when their is blatant false doctrine, or when their is open sin. YES!
Now, if a Christian to another saved Christian tells them that they cannot make a single difference in anyones life by showing them who God is and His love and their efforts are a waste of time and fruitless, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
If a Christian to another Christian tells them that they are evil and wicked because they choose to help less-fortunate kids, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
If a Christian to another Christian ridicules them and attacks their profession simply because most in that line of work most are not Christians, IS WRONG and is UNRIGHTEOUS judgment.
THEN NO!
YES, they might not OPENLY disagree with that BUT they DO NOT practice what they preach. Where I have issues is when these same people don't know WHEN TO STOP judging and they become this out of control train where they bulldoze other Christians because they don't have the ability, knowledge or spiritual maturity to STOP judging. They flip this "judging switch" in their minds and mouths and keep going at it, in doing so they become rude, offensive, attacking, demeaning, etc. towards other believers in Christ.
There are problems on BOTH SIDES. The more "rampant" is the judge not crowd but the judge crowd, at times, does not know when to stop judging and they become this out of control train where they bulldoze other Christians because they don't have the ability, knowledge or spiritual maturity to STOP judging. They flip this "judging switch" in their minds and mouths and keep going at it, in doing so they become rude, offensive, attacking, demeaning, etc. towards other believers in Christ.
Once again, the article I agree with mostly, except there are no references to Paul's constant statements about showing love, meekness and gentleness TOWARDS OTHER BELIEVERS. These passages of GRACE where completely overlooked. The 4 gospels were focused on (LAW) and a couple of references to Pauline teaching (GRACE) were only mentioned. The primary focus in the article was using references from the gospels & OT kingdom law program.
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What happened to these GRACE instructions:
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law
2Co 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence [am] base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, not being quarrelsome, but forbearing, showing all meekness to all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Paul emphasized LOVE, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE, GENTLENESS...
The problem or issue here is that the lack of the above is being done BELIEVER TO BELIEVER. I have no problem with calling an atheist a FOOL but calling a believer in Christ a fool and judging them without any just cause is WRONG and sinful.
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Gal 6:10 So then as we have time, let us work good toward all, especially toward those of the household of faith.
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WHY WERE THEY LEFT OUT OF THE ARTICLE???
They were left out because the article was addressing a very specific problem within the church. The article is about the difference between being kind and being nice. The church, for the most part, focuses ONLY on the 'grace instructions', as you call them, and as a result have redefined the word 'kind' so that it is essentially synonymous with the word 'nice' as is evidenced by your own post (#90 in this thread) and your entire argument on this thread. Enyart was addressing the fact that the church has become so afraid of hurting someone's feeling that they've marginalized themselves to the point that no one cares about what it has to say and was making the point that the truth is unavoidably offensive, especially in the evil world we live in, and that therefore the closer we get to being totally unoffensive, the closer we get to divorcing our message from the truth. The article was not intended to be an exhaustive essay on how Christians should conduct themselves in their various personal interactions. It was intended to address a specific problem in a way that was both powerful and eloquent while remaining brief enough to fit on a single piece of paper. Your criticisms are therefore beyond unreasonable and are in fact rather silly.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Resting in Him,
Clete
If you find them silly, then so be it. I don't find them silly because I believe they are valid and very important.
Again, one CANNOT have one without the other. In other words, if you are instructed to judge, but then the part about when to STOP judging & how to control the judging towards other Christians is left out, I believe that is where the PROBLEM begins and comes to fruition in the points that I keep making.
Biblical judging is NOT a small task or something to be taken lightheartedly. Does one simply instruct someone on how to get a vehicle moving in a straight line but then neglects to tell them on how to safely navigate and operate that vehicle in a safe and defensive manner so that they don't injure or kill themselves or others? Of course not.
So, what has happened is that some have taken this route and do not know how or when to stop judging and the go from righteous judgment to unrighteous judgment against other Christians. That important part was left out of the instructions.
I understand that the article is NOT an exhaustive study on Christian behavior. Like I said before, I agree with most of it, but I do believe that VITAL points are left out. These vital points are essential to getting a complete and proper picture of the theology behind Biblical judgment.
You feel that it is NOT essential to have those dozens of verses that Paul instructs and pleads with believers on how to treat and react to other believers. That is wrong! For your arming someone with a important task that should not be taken lightly or haphazardly. Then you leave out the most important keys that IN GRACE we are to approach other believers in certain ways. When you focus on the LAW (the 4 gospels and the OT), then it paints a SKEWED picture of judging. If you BALANCED it by talking about the dozens of verses that Paul speaks of, then these unrighteous judgment ISSUES would NOT be happening. The problem is that THEY ARE HAPPENING & I believe the problem goes back to not having the numerous verses of proper Grace "etiquette" that Paul speaks of that we should have from one believer to another.
Again I ask, as one dispensational brother to another Mid-Acts brother, WHY WERE THEY LEFT OUT OF THE ARTICLE???
DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL GET A SKEWED & INCORRECT VIEW OF JUDGING DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE NUMEROUS GRACE PASSAGES OF CHRISTIAN TO CHRISTIAN CONDUCT WERE LEFT OUT??