REPORT: Nicer Than God - By Bob Enyart

[Nathon Detroit]

Don't get me wrong, I DON'T advocate being this "mushy, gushy, love all" Christianity. I believe in being truthful, honest but doing so in love.

For the most part I agree with what you are saying.

However.....

I think we need to be careful about how we use our proof texts.

You reference...

WHAT DOES THE APOSTLE PAUL HAVE TO SAY:

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Every single verse you reference here should be preceded with the phrase....

If all things are equal.....

In other words....

If all things are equal..... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

In other words, assuming a servant of the Lord isn't dealing with a deceiver, a criminal, a wicked pervert, etc. THEN he should be gentle and meek.

After all.... Jesus wasn't exactly gentle and meek when He fashioned His own whip to chase grown men out of the temple.

John the Baptist wasn't exactly "patient" with Herod.

And Shimei wasn't "gentle" towards David.

People often use verses like the ones you referenced above to condemn Christians for rebuking false teachers, the sexually immoral, etc. They use the verses in an overly general way as if they apply in ALL cases and under ALL circumstances, which of course can be proved objectively false.

Overusing the above verses would be just as wrong as claiming that we should rebuke EVERYONE based on 1Timothy 5:20 or 2 Timothy 4:2 or Titus 1:1 or Titus 2:15.

 

[Stripe]

What good comes from executing innocent people Stipe?

Quit manipulating the question. Good can come from the unjust death of an innocent person. It will not always be the case.

What exactly are you referring to with this 'if people accept their responsibility'?

If the person on death row proclaimed his innocence, but condemned the act that was committed and would welcome the DP if in fact he were guilty, he might find the comfort and courage to stick to what he believed by the thought that others might be deterred by the consequences they saw in what was going to happen to him. He might find comfort in the fact that he was saving lives.

Is it possible, Red, that a would-be rapist might see or hear about the execution of an innocent person for a crime similar to what he was to commit and for that person to restrain himself through a sense of conviction. Is that possible?

Can you see how people are taking responsibility for what they say, think and do in this situation?

and enough with it 'not being nice', executing innocent people under a system which is bound to make such errors is not "not nice", it's a complete travesty of justice and completely avoidable!

No, allowing rapists out onto the streets is infinitely worse. That is a complete travesty of justice and completely avoidable.

Executing an innocent person is a mistake. It is not deliberate.

Allowing a rapist onto the street is a deliberate act.

Which is worse, Red, the bad things you do that are accidents or the bad things you do that are deliberate?

 

[Pettrix]

For the most part I agree with what you are saying.
However.....
I think we need to be careful about how we use our proof texts.
You reference...Every single verse you reference here should be preceded with the phrase....

If all things are equal.....

In other words....

If all things are equal..... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

In other words, assuming a servant of the Lord isn't dealing with a deceiver, a criminal, a wicked, etc. THEN he should be gentle and meek.

"If all things are equal" is NOT found in those verses. Of course, if someone is a criminal, a deceiver or wicked, then we can and should approach them differently. The context of ALL those verses I quoted, along with many others such as:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

2Co 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence [am] base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:

Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, not being quarrelsome, but forbearing, showing all meekness to all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Paul emphasized LOVE, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE, GENTLENESS...

The problem or issue here is that the lack of the above is being done BELIEVER TO BELIEVER. I have no problem with calling an atheist a FOOL but calling a believer in Christ a fool and judging them without any just cause is WRONG and sinful.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Gal 6:10 So then as we have time, let us work good toward all, especially toward those of the household of faith.

Now, you stated:

After all.... Jesus wasn't exactly gentle and meek when He fashioned His own whip to chase grown men out of the temple.
John the Baptist wasn't exactly "patient" with Herod.
And Shimei wasn't "gentle" towards David.

Your examples versus Paul's constant and numerous emphasis on meekness and gentleness is quite different. First off, Jesus is God, the temple was a place where people went to worship and give honor and sacrifice to God. They turned it into a wicked place. It was HIS temple:

Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

I find it quite "strange" :think: that your examples of being harsh and lacking gentleness & meekness, are non-Grace examples. Just as the LAW that is found in the OT & gospels is dramatically opposite of the GRACE found in the Pauline epistles. Being that we are dispensational, Mid-Acts, Pauline believers. You are diverting away from Paul and his constant and very clear verses showing that we are to behave and act differently to other Christians in matters of beliefs.

People often use verses like the ones you referenced above to condemn Christians for rebuking false teachers, the sexually immoral, etc. They use the verses in an overly general way as if they apply in ALL cases and under ALL circumstances, which of course can be proved to be objectively false.

Once again, you are comparing apples and oranges. If a Christian does not understand Grace fully and they attempt to practice the Sabbath. Do we tell them, "You fool, you are putting yourself under the law, repent you Galatianist"? I believe there is a better way, as the Apostle Paul proclaims, over and over.

Now, if a Christian is preaching a false gospel or they are committing adultery, then we can approach them the way the apostle Paul instructs believers to do.

As I stated before, sometimes people are just plain 'ole jerks, then they get saved, now they are saved jerks. Now, instead of acting like a jerk because someone didn't like the baseball team that he likes, he uses the Bible and if someone disagrees with his beliefs, he resorts to his "jerk nature".

Also, don't get me wrong, I am not preaching a mushy, gushy, love-all Christian-eaze. What I am saying is that the Apostle Paul thru Christ is OUR example. There are DOZENS of verses which show that GRACE has a different approach towards people than the LAW had. The law was a steam-roller, it would squish you flat, it was do or die (literally). Grace is the polar opposite. This again, is applying from BELIEVER to BELIEVER.

Now, this DOES NOT apply to murderers or those guilty of heinous criminal acts. Yes, they can or be saved by Grace thru Faith, if they believe. But treating other believers in Christ belligerently simply because they have a different view on some issues is WRONG and sinful.

Let me say this. I have been treated MORE harshly by some believers in the past few months, than I have by unsaved, godless, hell-bound people. It is disheartening, and it makes me VERY SAD. I bet the unbelievers love to hear that one, as it gives them more ammunition for their cause, but it is sad but true.:sigh:

 

[Pettrix]

Continuing on my point.

It is not that I have a problem with believers speaking out harshly against the wicked and evil. No problems whatsoever. It is not that I have a problem with debating or discussing issues. No problems whatsoever.

The problem that I do have, is when someone who has NO IDEA of who I am, what I have done or what I am doing for the ministry of Christ or my walk. Who then judges me and uses harsh language and says mean and hurtful things against me, that is where it makes a turn for an ugly road.

You see, the line can get blurred by those who are spiritually immature. Being a believer is a great thing but carries with it a great responsibility. You are to judge the wicked and sinful things but when you start swinging that axe haphazardly and start taking out sincere believers in the process. You have gone from being Biblical to becoming a reckless, out of control,man slaughtering slanderer. If one lacks the spiritual and mental ability to judge rightly, then they need to step-back and build on spiritual and maturity skills.

 

[Clete]

Continuing on my point.

It is not that I have a problem with believers speaking out harshly against the wicked and evil. No problems whatsoever. It is not that I have a problem with debating or discussing issues. No problems whatsoever.

The problem that I do have, is when someone who has NO IDEA of who I am, what I have done or what I am doing for the ministry of Christ or my walk. Who then judges me and uses harsh language and says mean and hurtful things against me, that is where it makes a turn for an ugly road.

You see, the line can get blurred by those who are spiritually immature. Being a believer is a great thing but carries with it a great responsibility. You are to judge the wicked and sinful things but when you start swinging that axe haphazardly and start taking out sincere believers in the process. You have gone from being Biblical to becoming a reckless, out of control,man slaughtering slanderer. If one lacks the spiritual and mental ability to judge rightly, then they need to step-back and build on spiritual and maturity skills.

Is there someone here who disagrees with this?

 

[Nick M]

In order to judge in righteousness you must first be righteous. You may be able to judge rightly but so can an atheist. That does not make the atheist righteous.:doh:

So how does an athiest go about becoming righteous? Wouldn't it start with repentance to our Lord Jesus?

Great point by the way.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I find it quite "strange" :think: that your examples of being harsh and lacking gentleness & meekness, are non-Grace examples. Just as the LAW that is found in the OT & gospels is dramatically opposite of the GRACE found in the Pauline epistles. Being that we are dispensational, Mid-Acts, Pauline believers. You are diverting away from Paul and his constant and very clear verses showing that we are to behave and act differently to other Christians in matters of beliefs.

Did Paul get arrested for being "meek"?

Was Stephen stoned to death for being "gentle"?

It turns out it was Paul who stated some of the most harsh stuff in all the Bible!

Let me illustrate my point.....

You referenced Paul stating: "the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."

Yet and Paul also states....

"Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. "

How should we determine (based on the above two instructions) when to be "gentle" and when to "make all fear"?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The problem or issue here is that the lack of the above is being done BELIEVER TO BELIEVER. I have no problem with calling an atheist a FOOL but calling a believer in Christ a fool and judging them without any just cause is WRONG and sinful.

Pettrix this is one of my pet peeves. So... I have to comment on it. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has made the claim we should judge "without any just cause".

That would be evil!

Can you name a single person (believer or non-believer) who has ever made a claim like that?

Yet you slip that line into your post as if you are making some sort of great point. This type of tactic really bothers me and it takes away from the honest and interesting discussion we are having because it is disingenuous.

 

[Joe Roberts]

So if you are nicer then God, are you going to Hell?

 

[Pettrix]

Pettrix this is one of my pet peeves. So... I have to comment on it. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has made the claim we should judge "without any just cause".

That would be evil!

Can you name a single person (believer or non-believer) who has ever made a claim like that?

Yet you slip that line into your post as if you are making some sort of great point. This type of tactic really bothers me and it takes away from the honest and interesting discussion we are having because it is disingenuous.

They will not make such a "claim" openly but their "actions" will live-up to that belief. You see, they will hold to they must judge rightly, but they don't know when to stop "judging". The will judge evil and then they blur the line and start judging Christians haphazardly. They might not see that they are judging without "any just cause" because they do not know when to stop or where to stop. This again probably comes from a lack of maturity or their personality is that way.

So they will not make that above claim because in their minds they believe that they are judging rightly, but in truth, they are making wrong and false judgments.

Knight, this is not a tactic or anything like that. I am making a point on personal observations. I am not saying everyone does this, there are a few that do, I've seen it and experienced it first-hand.

I believe that where we are not seeing "eye-to-eye" is that:

1- Nobody will come-out and make a claim/statement that we should judge without any just cause.
2 - The reality of it, is that they are doing that. Maybe they don't know it or maybe they don't have the spiritual maturity to know when and where to stop doing. Or maybe that is their personality.
3 - Judging evil is good. Judging a Christians walk based on generalities is not good.

(Nobody said this exactly, to my knowledge, but it does fit the criteria with the point I am trying to make)
For example, if you were a doctor, what it be fair and righteous to say, "All doctors are evil, murderous, fools. As they murder un-born children." Of course not. As there ARE doctors that do abortions but there are doctors that will NOT do abortions. Lumping everyone in such a category and calling all of them wicked and evil is WRONG.

 

[Poly]

For example, if you were a doctor, what it be fair and righteous to say, "All doctors are evil, murderous, fools. As they murder un-born children." Of course not. As there ARE doctors that do abortions but there are doctors that will NOT do abortions. Lumping everyone in such a category and calling all of them wicked and evil is WRONG.

That's not really a fair comparison, is it? Nobody would claim that all doctors are evil based on the actions of some who do evil things just as nobody has ever claimed that all Christians are fools based on the actions of some who say and do foolish things.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

(Nobody said this exactly, to my knowledge, but it does fit the criteria with the point I am trying to make)
For example, if you were a doctor, what it be fair and righteous to say, "All doctors are evil, murderous, fools. As they murder un-born children." Of course not. As there ARE doctors that do abortions but there are doctors that will NOT do abortions. Lumping everyone in such a category and calling all of them wicked and evil is WRONG.

I am not sure how this all fits in with the discussion, it almost sounds like you are addressing a specific experience in your life, while I was under the impression we were discussing general concepts etc.

My guess is, we would probably agree with each other if we were discussing this in person and we could cut through the misunderstandings more easily.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So if you are nicer then God, are you going to Hell?

That is a silly question Joe.

 

[Turbo]

Oh righto CRASH, it's not a travesty of justice for innocent people to be executed, that sure makes sense :squint:

Of course it is tragic when an innocent person is punished for a crime he did not commit, regardless of what that punishment is.


But why is it, red77, that you so passionately defend murderers, rapists, and other criminals whom God commanded should be put to death; yet when it comes to an innocent baby in the womb, you support that baby's execution if his or her father happens to be a rapist.

Rapists should not be executed, says red77, because we might inadvertently execute an innocent person at some point. But sons and daughters of rapists can be executed with red77's approval, even though every single one of them is innocent.

People should not be punished for their fathers' crimes, red77. (See Jer 18.) In this case, you endorse a punishment for innocent children that you deem too harsh for their guilty fathers!

Will you repent of your support for the intentional slaughter of innocent people?

 

[Stripe]

Which is worse, Red, the bad things you do that are accidents or the bad things you do that are deliberate?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Of course it is tragic when an innocent person is punished for a crime he did not commit, regardless of what that punishment is.

But why is it, red77, that you so passionately defend murderers, rapists, and other criminals whom God commanded should be put to death; yet when it comes to an innocent baby in the womb, you support that baby's execution if his or her father happens to be a rapist.

Rapists should not be executed, says red77, because we might inadvertently execute an innocent person at some point. But sons and daughters of rapists can be executed with red77's approval, even though every single one of them is innocent.

People should not be punished for their fathers' crimes, red77. (See Jer 18.) In this case, you endorse a punishment for innocent children that you deem too harsh for their guilty fathers!

Will you repent of your support for the intentional slaughter of innocent people?

POTD :first:

Red, I suggest you carefully read Turbo's response to you.

In fact, maybe you should read it 18 times! A classic response from Turbo. :up:

 

[Chileice]

Just wondering, Red77, why did you resurrect this thread? It is known as a can of worms, a hornet's nest, some people's soap-box. You may wish this had stayed in the thread junk-yard!

 

[red77]

Of course it is tragic when an innocent person is punished for a crime he did not commit, regardless of what that punishment is.

i'm glad that we agree on this at least, thats why for me there is no justification for the DP under our current (highly) inadequate legal systems....

But why is it, red77, that you so passionately defend murderers, rapists, and other criminals whom God commanded should be put to death; yet when it comes to an innocent baby in the womb, you support that baby's execution if his or her father happens to be a rapist.

What on earth are you talking about? Where have I defended rapists and murderers?
You really might want to be a bit more careful on this subject as if you're not already aware my own sister was a victim of rape and if you think that I don't want whoever did it to face punishment then you can think again! Where the heck have i supported murderers escaping justice either? Where the heck have i even defended the actions of rapists and murderers??!!

Rapists should not be executed, says red77, because we might inadvertently execute an innocent person at some point. But sons and daughters of rapists can be executed with red77's approval, even though every single one of them is innocent.

You are psersisting with the same strawman that I have argued against constantly, I have NOT said that rapists or murderers should not be executed, merely that I have little confidence in our legal system that all those convicted of such offences would actually be guilty and as such i cannot vote for the DP

People should not be punished for their fathers' crimes, red77. (See Jer 18.) In this case, you endorse a punishment for innocent children that you deem too harsh for their guilty fathers!

I am anti abortion, but I will not condemn a woman in the trauma of rape who decides to terminate a possible conception immediately, i do not encourage it and i would prefer that the woman receive the best counselling and support and would prefer her to carry on with the pregnancy, but I am NOT going to stand in judgement if she decides to take a drug at such an early stage where there may not even be a pregnancy, have you seen the effects of what happens to a woman who's been raped? you are also contradicting yourself on my stance regarding rapists, I've argued against the DP because of inevitable miscarriages - NOT because I do not think that rape in itself isn't a capital crime....

Will you repent of your support for the intentional slaughter of innocent people?

If thats what I supported then i'd repent, it isn't.....
how about you, you support the DP don't you? How do you justify the inevitable amount of innocent deaths that would happen if we had it enforced under our current systems?

 

[Mystery]

i cannot vote for the DP

Unless it's a helpless innocent child in the womb.

I am NOT going to stand in judgement if she decides to take a drug at such an early stage where there may not even be a pregnancy, have you seen the effects of what happens to a woman who's been raped?

Have you ever seen the effects of a baby ripped from the womb.

Like a wise person once said... "it's a lot easier to put the mother back together (emotionally), than it is the child (physically).

 

[red77]

Just wondering, Red77, why did you resurrect this thread? It is known as a can of worms, a hornet's nest, some people's soap-box. You may wish this had stayed in the thread junk-yard!

I actually didn't, it was bumped by Knight because there was a conversation going on about christians being supposedly too nice sothe conversation moved here, obviously it's moved on a few tangents since that point......