REPORT: Coming Out of the Closet - By Bob Enyart

[Nathon Detroit]

Just FYI - you are, of course, aware of the numerous studies showing that severe homophobics are actually physiologically aroused by images of homosexual acts indicating that they are, of course, "closet homosexuals"? Of course you don't qualify as a "severe homophobic", do you?

Live and let live - to each his own. What skin is it off your nose? One more place in heaven for you (infallible and perfect), right?

Cheers
Thomas

Is this the kind of garbage you teach your high school students?

 

[Thomas]

[quot]Is this the kind of garbage you teach your high school students?[/quote]

"Garbage"?? What would you have me teach them --- creationism???? And now who's presenting their arguments "clearly, calmly, rationally and convincingly "???

But the answer to your question is this - I have a zero tolerance for intolerance, bigotry and close-mindedness. Have I seen studies that suggest militant homophobes are aroused by images of homosexual acts? Yes. Do I present such research to my students? No. I am as suspect of this research as I am of studies indicating that drinking coffee causes cancer (or conversely, not drinking coffee causes cancer). I teach my students scientific sketicism (which helps them identify the reasons why creationism is not a valid scientific theory).

However, it is worth noting that I do not, under any circumstances, tolerate bigotry or predjudice of any variety in my classes. Homophobic remarks are treated as seriously as racial bigotry - and I would hope that anyone who read the Bible and found that tolerance, love on one's neighbour and not passing judgement on others are upright and godly virtues would do the same.

Cheers
Thomas

 

[beanieboy]

Is this the kind of garbage you teach your high school students?

I was a psych major. It's true. Numerous studies have shown it.

In my personal life, I have also found that the people that harrassed you the most in high school/college and would go off about how disgusted they were about homosexuality you would eventually see at a gay bar.

As Christina Ricci says in The Opposite of Sex, "Girls, if your boyfriend just let out a really loud groan when those two guys kissed, it's a bad sign. And if he's always making jokes about dropping the soap in the shower, it's a REALLY bad sign. I mean, straight men don't think a lot about naked soaped up guys, ya know?"

I applaud you, Thomas, for not allowing the intolerance. I remember reading of a guy who dropped out of school because his peers harrassed him so badly. In eight grade, he was mock gang raped by a group of guys. In high school, he was beaten so severly, that they cracked a couple of his ribs. And the principals response? "Well, if you are going to be gay, what do you expect?"

It saddens me that so called christians have made "tolerance" a bad word. One may believe in Christianity, but that doesn't mean you have to berate people of other religions, for example. You need to respect and tolerate them. Unfortunately, the "loving your neighbor as yourself" rule seems to get swept under the floor rug.

What especially angers me is writing bile like the article "Coming Out of the Closet," where the author does only disapproves of homosexuality, but homosexuals themselves, and then paints them as the enemy with falsehood and shows them as a threat, and brags about his hatred and contempt for them. Then, someone buys this bologna, and kills someone gay, and the relgious leaders say nothing. It amazes me how vile it is, and how one can actually boast of it, yet lift their eyes to God, and pretend like they have no part in creating an atmosphere of violence, in an atmosphere that some people deserve death, that it is open season on homosexuals.

Why not just "come out of the closet" as a racist, and talk about how all the darkies want to rape your women? Then burn a cross to show your love of Christianity? It's not that different.

It sickens me. There. I've said it. I've come out. This kind of hatred makes me want to wretch violently. And it comes as no surprise that two people of the same sex expressing love for one another sickens him. Or tolerance. Or gentleness in rebuke. It comes as no surprise at all. Because such things have no place in the heart of someone who has filled it with hatred and anger.

 

[Projill]

Just FYI - you are, of course, aware of the numerous studies showing that severe homophobics are actually physiologically aroused by images of homosexual acts indicating that they are, of course, "closet homosexuals"? Of course you don't qualify as a "severe homophobic", do you?

Live and let live - to each his own. What skin is it off your nose? One more place in heaven for you (infallible and perfect), right?

Cheers
Thomas

Hi, Thomas!

I actually heard about a really interesting study. The study in question first asked men who claimed "heterosexual" status a series of questions to determine whether or not they were homophobic. Once this line of questioning was done, they were hooked up to various monitors that could record respiration, heartbeat, arousal, and all that fun stuff, and then the men were shown a series of images that were of homosexual orientation. The amount of homophobic men who reacted with arousal were actually far greater than the amount of men who were not homophobic. Apparently there is correlation with being aroused by gay images and homophobia. Shakespeare said it best: "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

 

[Projill]

It sickens me. There. I've said it. I've come out. This kind of hatred makes me want to wretch violently. And it comes as no surprise that two people of the same sex expressing love for one another sickens him. Or tolerance. Or gentleness in rebuke. It comes as no surprise at all. Because such things have no place in the heart of someone who has filled it with hatred and anger.

Amen and amen, Beanie!

Heh...I've been in charge of vigils on the past for Matthew Shepard, James Byrd Jr., and various other victims of hateful violence. For several months following, after viewing those images, not only did I wretch regularly because of all the stuff I had to view to research it, I also had violent nightmares that scared me to the degree that I wouldn't sleep for several days at a time. Anything more than a light catnap was completely out. I hear you on the physically reacting to hatred and violence. I think normal people do react that way. It's only the violent and hateful that can stand the violent and hateful.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Thomas says...

I have a zero tolerance for intolerance

Thomas contradicts himself in just SEVEN words! It's a new record ladies and gentlemen! And spoken like a true public school teacher! Is it any wonder why the US public school system is an admitted failure??? The teachers themselves can't even think straight. :down:

You continue...

However, it is worth noting that I do not, under any circumstances, tolerate bigotry or predjudice of any variety in my classes.

Except for the fact that you yourself are prejudice against Bible believing Christians, right?

 

[Thomas]

And spoken like a true public school teacher! Is it any wonder why the US public school system is an admitted failure???

And Knight has shown that he is illiterate in two posts - is this a new record? I stated clearly that I do not teach public school - but at a secular independent school. And I teach rather well, I might add - and am fairly well qualified. If your public schools are in a state of failing it is because creationists are advancing their religion into science classes, and pretending that it is science.

Interesting that on another forum, Knight chastised me for being too aggressive and abusive - and in the only two posts we have exchanged, Knight has shown himself to be an incredibly insulting goober - try a page from your own book.

Except for the fact that you yourself are prejudice against Bible believing Christians, right?

I am a "Bible believing Christian" - so 'no', I'm not predjudiced against myself. I do have a problem with hypocrites who call themselves Christians and use their Bibles to justify their fear and hatred. Right up there with White Supremicists.

Cheers
Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Projill -

I actually heard about a really interesting study.

That is the study to which I was referring. Knight obviously objects to my mentioning this - and I agree that I do have some reservations about the validity of many psychological (and medical for that matter) experiments. Too many uncontrolled variables, correlation not equallying cause and effect, poor data analysis, etc. Still, the results of this study were interesting, and certainly imply that severe homophobia such as our webmaster suffers may be rooted in deeply repressed homosexuality and self-loathing.

Cheers
Thomas

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Thomas states....

Interesting that on another forum, Knight chastised me for being too aggressive and abusive - and in the only two posts we have exchanged, Knight has shown himself to be an incredibly insulting goober - try a page from your own book.

Thomas, I chastised you because you were name calling our moderator for no cause! I have read your threads with Bob B and you are nothing but a name calling loon! Bob B is calm cool and collect, you are high strung, defensive and irrational.

Had you decided to conduct yourself in a manner fitting to the discussion I would never have chastised you.

Then, when someone makes a statement like... "I have a zero tolerance for intolerance" all the while claiming to be a teacher!!!! I have to get in on that action!!! I mean really!!! That's great material.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, I chastised you because you were name calling our moderator for no cause!

Illiteracy take two. I replied to your charges and you either didn't read, can't read them, or chose to ingore them in your response.

Quite simply, bob deserves everything he gets. Besides being an outright liar, he deliberately misrepresents evolution, never (ever) supports a single one of his outrageous lies, and does everything he can to dishonestly and disingenuously advance his agenda. Moreover, there have been several cases in the past where bob has proven to be a lousy, capricious and subjective moderator - when bob starts earning respect, he'll start getting respect.

You chimed into a discussion on evolution with nothing more than a comment on my debating approach with bob. You clearly had no idea what you were talking about, and had nothing of substance to add to the discussion at hand. In other words, why did you bother to post at all?

I have read your threads with Bob B and you are nothing but a name calling loon! Bob B is calm cool and collect, you are high strung, defensive and irrational.

bob b has the luxury of being "calm and cool" since he doesn't put thought or effort into his posts, he makes emotional appeals to advance his agenda, and he ignores every post from every board meber to actually defend his claims, and proceeds to make more outrageous claims. Why wouldn't he be calm and collected. He lives in another reality.

I am not high strung. you have no clue what you're talking about. I do get defensive when my ideas, my statements and the theory of evolution in general are deliberately misrepresented. I'm pretty sure (from the emotional responses you seem prone to) you, too, would be defensive. Finally, I am not the slightest bit irrational. Please provide specific references to my posts and explain why and how my statements are irrational, and in what context.

Had you decided to conduct yourself in a manner fitting to the discussion I would never have chastised you.

Yes, you would have. You like to post to see yourself post. I said nothing on that forum that was in any way related to you, or your views. You admitted you had nothing to contribute to the discussion - so why should you care about the nature of exhanges between bob and I? There was nothing at all in that thread relevant in any way to you - unless you have some personal stake in the creation/evolution debate, or in bob's personal welfare and emtional well being.

Then, when someone makes a statement like... "I have a zero tolerance for intolerance" all the while claiming to be a teacher!!!!

Apparently nuances in the English language are lost on you. That's OK, it's not an easy languauge to master - keep working. Moreover, I don't "claim" to be a teacher - I am a teacher (according to my job description and contractual agreement). And what of it?

I have to get in on that action!!! I mean really!!! That's great material.

So get in on it. All you have contributed so far is attempts at character assassination. What do you have to contribute to the discussion at hand?

Cheers
Thomas

 

[kiwimac]

Now Thomas

No fair actually expecting Knight and Bob to engage in useful debate! They much prefer to name call or press their particular fundamentalist agendas than to actually think about what they have to say!

Kiwimac

 

[kiwimac]

I note that me again has not bothered to respond to my post to him. Typical, attack the person, cast aspersions on them, then when you are called on it, simply ignore the post!

Kiwimac

 

[Thomas]

Kiwimac -

No fair actually expecting Knight and Bob to engage in useful debate! They much prefer to name call or press their particular fundamentalist agendas than to actually think about what they have to say!

You speak volumes about bob b - but I had no personal experience with Knight until he made a random (unsubstantive) post on the forum I usually frequent (Creation/Evolution). In the few posts Knight has made to me, he certainly does appear to be bob-esque in his approach to "discussing" his ideas.

I'm sure he and bob get together at the end of the day for some reciprocal back-slapping, and then consult the Bible to see if they can condone their unChristian behaviors... ;^D

Cheers
Thomas

 

[Projill]

They're really doing a great job destroying what precious little validity American fundamentalist Christianity ever possessed. You have to give 'em credit.

 

[beanieboy]

Knight -What about "not tolerating intolerance" is so hard to wrap your brain around?

You are simply saying that the thing you won't put up with is someone's refusal to put up with someone because they are different - in race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc. - demonstrated by harrassing them, pushing them into lockers, name calling, etc.

So, I am unsure if you don't understand it because you just aren't that smart, or if you are being obtuse in order to justify such actions while still holding a membership card to Christianity, stating, more or less, that you tolerate intolerance, which I find an oxymoron to you religious beliefs.

So, mind filling us in? What is your issue with the statement "I will not tolerate intolerace?"

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Beanie you write...

Knight -What about "not tolerating intolerance" is so hard to wrap your brain around?

You are simply saying that the thing you won't put up with is someone's refusal to put up with someone because they are different - in race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc. - demonstrated by harrassing them, pushing them into lockers, name calling, etc.

Come on beanie you are smarter than this aren't you???

When you cannot "tolerate" intolerance you are intolerant! The argument "I have zero tolerance for intolerance" is a self contradicting argument that you cannot escape!

A more consistent worldview might be....
"I am intolerant of -------- (insert item of intolerance here), but I am tolerant of X, Y and Z" In other words you qualify your intolerance.

Or....

"I am tolerant" (which would include being tolerant of those who are intolerant)

You continue...

that you tolerate intolerance

Of course I tolerate intolerance and so do you!!! Don't you tolerate intolerance towards serial murderers??? I do! Don't you tolerate intolerance towards pedophiles? I do! How about rapists?? There are lots of things we should not tolerate or said in reverse... "tolerate intolerance towards", get the point?

Then.... once you admit that there are some things you have NO tolerance for the real question becomes where do our intolerance's differ?

 

[Projill]

That's the oldest argument I've seen in a long time on TOL. I think that argument is actually older than I am.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That's the oldest argument I've seen in a long time on TOL. I think that argument is actually older than I am.

In my best Taxi Driver imitation.... Are you talkin' to me?

If so, what specifically do you disagree with about my point?

 

[Projill]

In my best Taxi Driver imitation.... Are you talkin' to me?

If so, what specifically do you disagree with about my point?

Oh, I'll keep out of it. I've argued both sides of this one before. (As hard as it is to believe, I once argued your side of it.

I'm trying to stick with sarcastic side commentary at the moment.

 

[beanieboy]

Knight - I don't put up with those who harrass other people simply because they differ in religion, weight, color of skin, etc. - those things that is none of the first person's business.

Are we in agreement there?

I tolerate someone who says homosexuality is a sin. I tolerate someone who hates homosexuals. But when someone harrasses the person because they are homosexual - name calling, violence, murder, unjustified firing, etc., then I do not tolerate it.