REPORT: Coming Out of the Closet - By Bob Enyart

[beanieboy]

Knight - these kind of arguments are a general waste.

It's like writing the bill of rights, and wanting the freedom of religion. Then someone saying, "Oh, but if we do that, then we will have people making human sacrifices." It's extemist, and stupid, and showing lack of all common sense.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Beanie you write…

Knight - I don't put up with those who harrass other people simply because they differ in religion, weight, color of skin, etc. - those things that is none of the first person's business.

Would you hassle an acquaintance of yours if they told you that they liked to molest young boys?

 

[Barbiedoll]

What a crock of fetid dung!

Rarely have I seen such asinine drivel!

Kiwimac

True, you have just described homosexuals perfectly.

 

[Nineveh]

beanie boy,

"those things that is none of the first person's business." Unfortunatly that's not how it happens in the work place when people are mandated to attend seminars and classes on sexually oriented harassment. Or organizations are denied public access for not wanting to make it their business. The NEA is going to put this stuff in pullik skool too. No, I don't *want* to know, but it seems I am being forced to know, acknowledge, and accept all of this. And to make matters worse, I am not allowed to nicely say, "No, thank you." without being given the titles of bigot, closeminded, racist, homophobic, etc., all words designed to be used in a derogatory sence. How can I behave the way you want me to when on one hand you want privacy, and on the other you want everyone to know? I apologize to Knight and beanie boy. This is an A and B conversation, I'll C my way out

Ew kiwi, for crying out loud, you say you hold degrees. Right now I am wondering if those degrees are in putrid speech and heckling.

 

[Antipas]

A Question

A Question

I've been reading through this entire thread, well i've been skimming through it but I don't know if anyone has touched on the "moral" laws that's written in scripture.

I don't know how many people on this Board take the scripture seriously but it appears that people seem to ignore the fact that God finds this behavior disgusting. How do you reconcile this with your lifestyle if you are *gay* and are part of a religious organization?

I know of people that share the same denomination as me who are gay and they take the Word of God so seriously that they live a *celebate* lifestyle to avoid sinning in the eyes of God.

As for me, I have friends who are homosexual, and I care about them very much. They know that I do NOT agree with it at all and I do think it's NOT what God intended. Um, it does bother me that this behavior that goes against what's in scripture is *taught* to be OKAY when it isn't.

I also think it's wrong for school systems to take responsibility for something that should be discussed at home between a child and his parents. Whenver I have children, sex education and morality will start at home with me. I think it's horrible that *morality* is being taught at school and not at home.

Just a few thoughts thrown out there.

Antipas

 

[firechyld]

Ah, we've had discussion after discussion about whether or not the Bible does actually forbid homosexuality (I started the thread asking for evidence of that one myself), whether or not it's natural and whether or not "celibacy" actually removes the fact that one is homosexual.

None of these debates ever really got anywhere.

firechyld

 

[Barbiedoll]

Re: A Question

Re: A Question

I've been reading through this entire thread, well i've been skimming through it but I don't know if anyone has touched on the "moral" laws that's written in scripture.

I don't know how many people on this Board take the scripture seriously but it appears that people seem to ignore the fact that God finds this behavior disgusting. How do you reconcile this with your lifestyle if you are *gay* and are part of a religious organization?

_________________________________________

I agree that God finds homosexuality disgusting. Unfortunately, there are a few churches who accepts homosexuals, and I think these churches need to repent.

_________________________________________

I know of people that share the same denomination as me who are gay and they take the Word of God so seriously that they live a *celebate* lifestyle to avoid sinning in the eyes of God.

_________________________________________

But I believe when a homosexual truly repents and accepts Jesus Christ into his heart, if the homosexual truly accepted Jesus into their heart, they will not longer be a homosexual or have homosexual tendencies.

_________________________________________

As for me, I have friends who are homosexual, and I care about them very much. They know that I do NOT agree with it at all and I do think it's NOT what God intended. Um, it does bother me that this behavior that goes against what's in scripture is *taught* to be OKAY when it isn't.

I also think it's wrong for school systems to take responsibility for something that should be discussed at home between a child and his parents. Whenver I have children, sex education and morality will start at home with me. I think it's horrible that *morality* is being taught at school and not at home.

__________________________________________

Homosexuality is certainly not what God intended. Its evil, it comes from an evil spirit, from satan.

I agree that "morality" should be taught at home.

Great comments, Antipas.

 

[Zakath]

Barbiedoll wrote
But I believe when a homosexual truly repents and accepts Jesus Christ into his heart, if the homosexual truly accepted Jesus into their heart, they will not longer be a homosexual or have homosexual tendencies.

I'm puzzled, Barbiedoll.

It appears that you believe that homosexuality is some sort of special sin that a person can be delivered from once and for all. Do you believe that it's different from lying, cheating, having abortions, committing fraud, gluttony, avarice, drinking to excess, adultery, fornication, concupiscence, child abuse, pedophilia, wife beating, stealing money from the church, and all the hundreds (or even thousands) of other "sins" that Christians commit every day? Are you trying to indicate that anyone that commits sins cannot be a Christian?

 

[Zakath]

Beanie you write… Would you hassle an acquaintance of yours if they told you that they liked to molest young boys?

Knight,

Would you hassle an acquaintance of yours if you found out s/he abused other people's children?

If not, why the double standard?

 

[kiwimac]

Barbiedoll,

In an attempt at humour misquoted me. My dear, I was suggesting that the rabidly homophobic writings of folk like your self are fetid dung, asinine and drivel. Not the way in which people live their lives!

Please get it right next time!

Kiwimac

 

[Barbiedoll]

I'm puzzled, Barbiedoll.

It appears that you believe that homosexuality is some sort of special sin that a person can be delivered from once and for all. Do you believe that it's different from lying, cheating, having abortions, committing fraud, gluttony, avarice, drinking to excess, adultery, fornication, concupiscence, child abuse, pedophilia, wife beating, stealing money from the church, and all the hundreds (or even thousands) of other "sins" that Christians commit every day? Are you trying to indicate that anyone that commits sins cannot be a Christian?

A person can be delivered from any sin once and for all. Its called sanctification. Yes, I believe that homosexuality is a "special sin", but a person can be delivered from all sin.

 

[Barbiedoll]

Barbiedoll,

In an attempt at humour misquoted me. My dear, I was suggesting that the rabidly homophobic writings of folk like your self are fetid dung, asinine and drivel. Not the way in which people live their lives!

Please get it right next time!

Kiwimac

I was very much aware of what you meant, I just decided to use what you said for the good.

 

[Zakath]

A person can be delivered from any sin once and for all. Its called sanctification. Yes, I believe that homosexuality is a "special sin", but a person can be delivered from all sin. [/B]

Your reply prompts a few questions:

In your belief system, is it common (or even possible) for a living human being to be "sanctified" in such a way as to do away with their ability to sin?
As a follow-up, do you believe that there are living human beings, alive in the flesh today, who do not ever sin?

Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin involving sexual orientation or sexaul activity? (I'm trying to get at the basis of what makes a homosexual a homosexual in your mind.) What is "special" about a sin inolving sexual orientation or sexual activity?

 

[beanieboy]

beanie boy,

"those things that is none of the first person's business." Unfortunatly that's not how it happens in the work place when people are mandated to attend seminars and classes on sexually oriented harassment. Or organizations are denied public access for not wanting to make it their business. The NEA is going to put this stuff in pullik skool too. No, I don't *want* to know, but it seems I am being forced to know, acknowledge, and accept all of this. And to make matters worse, I am not allowed to nicely say, "No, thank you." without being given the titles of bigot, closeminded, racist, homophobic, etc., all words designed to be used in a derogatory sence. How can I behave the way you want me to when on one hand you want privacy, and on the other you want everyone to know? I apologize to Knight and beanie boy. This is an A and B conversation, I'll C my way out

Ew kiwi, for crying out loud, you say you hold degrees. Right now I am wondering if those degrees are in putrid speech and heckling.

This is a forum. I don't see it as a conversation between two people, but a place for anyone to jump in, as long as they have been following the discussion.

I have been to sexual orientation seminars. They aren't graphic. They are more about understanding.

As an example, the type of thing that was discussed is that Bob says he and his wife went to see Titanic with their teenage daughters, and thought it was great.
What people hear is - Bob and his family liked Titanic.

Steve says he went to Titanic with his boyfriend and they thought the movie would never end.
What some people hear is "I'M A HOMOSEXUAL."

Bob has indicated that he is heterosexual, that he has obviously had sex, since he has daughters, but no one thinks he's talking about sex, thinks he's flaunting his sexuality.

They are both doing the same thing, but their is a double standard on each.

That is the thing that is usually tried to communicate - and understanding.

As I said, in my work environment, I have had people use the word "fag," say of something that was stupid "that is sooo gay," etc. All I wanted was for people to just be a little respectful. It's unnecessary rudeness. Outside of the workplace, I really don't care what you think, do, or say, but while I am working with other people, I expect at least a miminal amount of civility.

I'm sorry that you are subjected to it, but if there wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be a need for the seminar. If there was a place where being a christian was a minority, but people walked around saying, "jesus tapdancing christ" and the like, and you complained, and people said that you had a problem, so they offered a seminar to explain why that is offensive, and ask people to refrain, you may understand a little better. It's necessary to put yourself in another's shoes to understand how to treat you neighbor as yourself, sometimes.

 

[firechyld]

That was quite well said, beanie... salient points.

I hope people read and digest it before "retaliating"...

firechyld

 

[beanieboy]

Re: A Question

Re: A Question

I've been reading through this entire thread, well i've been skimming through it but I don't know if anyone has touched on the "moral" laws that's written in scripture.

I don't know how many people on this Board take the scripture seriously but it appears that people seem to ignore the fact that God finds this behavior disgusting. How do you reconcile this with your lifestyle if you are *gay* and are part of a religious organization?

I know of people that share the same denomination as me who are gay and they take the Word of God so seriously that they live a *celebate* lifestyle to avoid sinning in the eyes of God.

As for me, I have friends who are homosexual, and I care about them very much. They know that I do NOT agree with it at all and I do think it's NOT what God intended. Um, it does bother me that this behavior that goes against what's in scripture is *taught* to be OKAY when it isn't.

I also think it's wrong for school systems to take responsibility for something that should be discussed at home between a child and his parents. Whenver I have children, sex education and morality will start at home with me. I think it's horrible that *morality* is being taught at school and not at home.

Just a few thoughts thrown out there.

Antipas

I would suggest going to www.whosoever.org

The site discusses the 7 passages at length, the context of what was said, who it was said to, and the like.

I have walked away with the conclusion that it isn't as clear as people are led to believe.

 

[beanieboy]

Beanie you write… Would you hassle an acquaintance of yours if they told you that they liked to molest young boys?

Molesting little boys isn't minding your own business.

What is your obsession with child molestation. Holy cats.

 

[beanieboy]

A person can be delivered from any sin once and for all. Its called sanctification. Yes, I believe that homosexuality is a "special sin", but a person can be delivered from all sin.

So, you no longer sin, Barbie? Really? Huh.

 

[Nineveh]

beanie,
I understand what you are saying, but from my experience, that isn't what happens. I have a good friend who works for the fed. My friend had to go through this type of training and has told me the atmosphere is 100% worse. The atmosphere has become one of fear, because anyone can yelp sexual harassment for anything, with no questions asked now. Now, we all face the same thing in the form of "sexaully oriented" harassment.

As far as this being a major problem, at least in pullik skools, I am still waitng for some stats. There is another thread where this was being discussed, and even the NEA doesn't have any. I think I eventually dug some stats up, but according to those, blacks are by far the most discriminated against in schools. And I haven't witnesses any siminars on that.

"I have been to sexual orientation seminars. They aren't graphic. They are more about understanding."

I do not understand how sex can be spoken about in an abstract way. The whole point of all of this is male on male sex and/or fem on fem sex. You can send a bully to a million siminars and the bully will still pick on folks for any reason they can think of. To force all of one group of folks into this sort of environment ment to cover the topic of sex, puts the whole issue "in their face". This is not conductive to the goal, if the goal is to remain private.

As far as having to listen to people blaspheme God, I hear it constantly. In the movies, on the radio, and even here in TOL. But you know what? I am not offended, I feel sorry them. They may want the authority over me to hurt me in that way, but they do not realize, they aren't hurting me, they are offending the Creator. That is His law they violate. Make a class? I wouldn't attend it. If they can't understand "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain", they wouldn't understand it any better after being forced to listen to someone talk about it for two long hours. I would think they would be resentful.

 

[beanieboy]

If a bully insists on calling people racial slurs or what have you, they will usually get fired. It is helpful, though, to explain why a jewish person isn't overreacting when they are offended by the remark, "dang, I just got jewed by the candy machine."

Most work environments that I have been in have just said upfront that they don't put up with harrassment of any sort, which includes individual race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, and the like.

And then they are done with it.

When I worked at a theater, we had a sensitivity training session on people with disabilities. Someone spoke who was blind, and another who was hearing impaired. What was the best about it was that we were able to understand things we were afraid to ask, understand what we needed to do, what was helpful, what wasn't, etc. We were able to understand their perspective.

In the seminars that I have seen, had that as their biggest goal. I was part of a panel with the police on sensitivity, and the thing that most of them seemed surprised about was that when police were simply respectful, many gay people were pleasantly surprised, whereas, many heterosexual people just assume they are going to be treated with respect. Most of it was simply question and answer, and the majority of it dealt with understanding. I told them that I didn't care what their stand was on homosexuality if I was robbed. I simply expected that the fact that i may have a home with another man isn't going to make them not do their job. And that's the bottom line.