Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

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beloved57 said:
Which one of my threads do you want to debate?
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I just want you to synthesize all your words of wisdom posted elsewhere into a post listing all the first order essentials of faith you consider the dividing line between the believer and the "professing but not possessing" person?

After all, you have declared many lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent here, so I am interested in what the specific first-order criteria you are basing your declarations upon.

Can you do that?

AMR
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
I just want you to synthesize all your words of wisdom posted elsewhere into a post listing all the first order essentials of faith you consider the dividing line between the believer and the "professing but not possessing" person?

After all, you have declared many lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent here, so I am interested in what the specific first-order criteria you are basing your declarations upon.

Can you do that?

AMR
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Do you believe that those Christ died for are reconciled to God/Justified by God while they are enemies and unbelievers and before they believe in Christ?Yes or No?
 
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beloved57 said:
No I can't since you evade my simple yes or no question!
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On the contary, I am not being evasive, rather I am being thorough as one cannot speak of matters of eternality and temporality without carefully explaining the distinctions involved.

As my responses clearly indicate, if you answered your own question with an unqualified "yes" you would be terribly incorrect at worst, very carelessly imprecise at best.

If you have issues with my response then by all means detail them out offering you own explanations why and I will do my best to clarify.

AMR
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Ask Mr. Religion said:
On the contary, I am not being evasive, rather I am being thorough as one cannot speak of matters of eternality and temporality without carefully explaining the distinctions involved.

As my responses clearly indicate, if you answered your own question with an unqualified "yes" you would be terribly incorrect at worst, very carelessly imprecise at best.

If you have issues with my response then by all means detail them out offering you own explanations why and I will do my best to clarify.

AMR
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Yes you are being evasive!
 
fishrovmen

fishrovmen

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Robert Pate said:
No it doesn't.

If God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Then no one needs to be predestinated.
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Robert,
You have said many times that "all of humanity" has been predestinated, so my question to you is:
the "we" that Paul mentions in Ephesians 1:7, is that the exact same people as the "us" mentioned in Ephesians 1:3,4,5, and 6?
In other words, Paul says in Ephesians 1:7 that "we" have redemption through His blood and the forgiveness of sins.
Are those the exact same people that are blessed with all spiritual blessings (verse 3), the exact same people that are chosen to be holy and without blame (verse 4), the exact same people that were predestined to adoption as sons (verse 5), the exact same people that were made accepted in the Beloved (verse 6)?
 
R

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fishrovmen said:
Robert,
You have said many times that "all of humanity" has been predestinated, so my question to you is:
the "we" that Paul mentions in Ephesians 1:7, is that the exact same people as the "us" mentioned in Ephesians 1:3,4,5, and 6?
In other words, Paul says in Ephesians 1:7 that "we" have redemption through His blood and the forgiveness of sins.
Are those the exact same people that are blessed with all spiritual blessings (verse 3), the exact same people that are chosen to be holy and without blame (verse 4), the exact same people that were predestined to adoption as sons (verse 5), the exact same people that were made accepted in the Beloved (verse 6)?
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I have never said that all of humanity has been predestinated. That is another one of your stupid attempts to try and make me say something that I didn't say.

All of the "Us's" and "We's" in Ephesians are Christians. They are the ones "Who first trusted in Christ when they heard the Gospel of their salvation" Ephesians 1:13. Ephesians does not teach that people are saved because they have been predestinated.
 
fishrovmen

fishrovmen

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Robert Pate said:
I have never said that all of humanity has been predestinated. That is another one of your stupid attempts to try and make me say something that I didn't say.

All of the "Us's" and "We's" in Ephesians are Christians. They are the ones "Who first trusted in Christ when they heard the Gospel of their salvation" Ephesians 1:13. Ephesians does not teach that people are saved because they have been predestinated.
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To show your lie, just review your OP in the thread "Ephesians 1:4, 5, In the Light of the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ".
 
Shasta

Shasta

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beloved57 said:
Well which one of my threads you want to debate?
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You have said true believers are reconciled to God even before their conversion to Christ. This is manifestly unscriptural. Paul says:

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach...(Colossians 1:21-22).

"FORMERLY" means that believers were in this state in the PAST.
"NOW" means that in the present they were in another state.

There is a drastic difference between the way the Colossians used to be and the way they were after coming to Christ. Originally they were "alienated, hostile in mind and engaged in evil deeds."

After reconciliation they became "holy and blameless, beyond reproach." They were not holy, blameless and beyond reproach BEFORE reconciliation. This also shows that they had not ALWAYS been reconciled. This change in status happened only after they put their faith in Christ.

Your doctrine of "eternal justification" is not scriptural or rational.

Now please reply directly to this objection.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Shasta said:
You have said true believers are reconciled to God even before their conversion to Christ. This is manifestly unscriptural. Paul says:

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach...(Colossians 1:21-22).

"FORMERLY" means that believers were in this state in the PAST.
"NOW" means that in the present they were in another state.

There is a drastic difference between the way the Colossians used to be and the way they were after coming to Christ. Originally they were "alienated, hostile in mind and engaged in evil deeds."

After reconciliation they became "holy and blameless, beyond reproach." They were not holy, blameless and beyond reproach BEFORE reconciliation. This also shows that they had not ALWAYS been reconciled. This change in status happened only after they put their faith in Christ.

Your doctrine of "eternal justification" is not scriptural or rational.

Now please reply directly to this objection.
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They were reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers by Christ death Rom 5:10!
 
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beloved57 said:
They were reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers by Christ death Rom 5:10!
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Elsewhere:
beloved57 said:
Those my Christ lived and died for have no sins to die in and they are believers while they are enemies and unbelievers! Christ believed for them when He obeyed the Law of God for them!
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So before they were regenerated they had the imputed righteousness of Christ all the while remaining ignorant of that imputed righteousness?

AMR
 
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beloved57 said:
I have made my points in my threads! You evade them as you are evasive now!
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So, in other words, your only reason for even posting in this thread is to call out others as lost, sin-bent, and hell-bound and if anyone asks you to explain why you say what you say, the answer is "go find what I wrote elsewhere and I am not going to tell you exactly where I wrote what I wrote"?

In what world do you think this is a proper response? I have no problem with anyone pointing me elsewhere if they have the courtesy to be specific in the pointer. Can you do so? Why not?

AMR
 
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