Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

Brother Ducky

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Calvin's God is not just because He causes people to fail, gives them no way out and then damns them forever for what they could not help doing - all to show how powerful He is.

Not sure that most Reformed folk would say that God causes people to fall. I am inclined to think that people are born fallen and objects of wraith, so causing some to fall is not necessary.

If that is so, how is God unjust? If one is saved it is a testimony to his goodness and grace. For none have to be saved. If he is gracious to some, does he have to be gracious to all in the same manner?
 

iouae

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16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

1. Everlasting life is conditional upon "believing in Him".

2. God pours out his rain upon the good and the evil in this life, but He gives the next life only to those who believe in him. Their reward for not believing in Him is this life only, and that is no small act of grace. Then the unbelievers are burnt UP in hell. They are not ever burning - which would be very unloving. And God did not mention hell just to frighten us. It is as real as anything else mentioned in the Bible.

3. It is possible to stop believing in what you once believed in, and lose eternal life, because everlasting life is conditional upon believing (ongoing) in Him.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back , my soul shall have no pleasure in him
 

Bright Raven

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If we believe in Christ we shall not perish. Once we have done so we are sealed with the Spirit of promise. Could you tell me how to become unsealed?
 

iouae

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Folks like to make it sound so complicated that God requires us to make a choice.

Deut 28:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live :

It is not like we don't make choices every day, such as whether to have mustard or ketchup on our hot dog.
 

iouae

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If we believe in Christ we shall not perish. Once we have done so we are sealed with the Spirit of promise. Could you tell me how to become unsealed?

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth , and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Notice how the servant had his debt forgiven. But because he in turn refused to forgive, God reinstated the debt.

That is how you can become unsealed or unforgiven.
 

Bright Raven

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32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth , and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Notice how the servant had his debt forgiven. But because he in turn refused to forgive, God reinstated the debt.

That is how you can become unsealed or unforgiven.
Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God

Those whom God seals are sealed for eternity.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

Ephesians 1:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
 

iouae

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Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God

Those whom God seals are sealed for eternity.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

Ephesians 1:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Explain to me the magic you see in that word "seal" that one cannot become unsealed.
The scripture you quote does not prove you you cannot become unsealed.

Explain to me what you believe "sealed" means. Do you read it to mean "locked" as in sealed in a treasure chest. But a treasure chest can become unlocked or unsealed. Locks just naturally unlock.

We enter a New Covenant. He becomes our God, and we become His people. At any time you can unseal yourself from God and this covenant. Just like one can from any covenant or friendship.

If you play the "spooky" card invoking some supernatural reason why its impossible to become "unsealed" then you need to give more proof than that.

And "guarantees" can become voided. Try taking that TV set back after you have opened it up to fix it.
 

Bright Raven

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Explain to me the magic you see in that word "seal" that one cannot become unsealed.
The scripture you quote does not prove you you cannot become unsealed.

Explain to me what you believe "sealed" means. Do you read it to mean "locked" as in sealed in a treasure chest. But a treasure chest can become unlocked or unsealed. Locks just naturally unlock.

We enter a New Covenant. He becomes our God, and we become His people. At any time you can unseal yourself from God and this covenant. Just like one can from any covenant or friendship.

If you play the "spooky" card invoking some supernatural reason why its impossible to become "unsealed" then you need to give more proof than that.

And "guarantees" can become voided. Try taking that TV set back after you have opened it up to fix it.
No you tell me! How do you become unsealed in the Spirit? Where do Paul's teachings ever say anything like that?
 

ananomyx

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God is absolutely sovereign, yet we are absolutely free to decide our fate. Those whom God predestined are those he new from the beginning would have a real desire to serve Him regardless of their human struggles. Again God is absolutely in control of the end from the beginning, yet we are completely free as well.
 

iouae

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No you tell me! How do you become unsealed in the Spirit? Where do Paul's teachings ever say anything like that?
Heb 10:38
1 Cor 9:27

And hundreds of other places. Just look at this one chapter.

Messages to the 7 churches. Look at all the conditions, look at what they are threatened with if they do not change.

5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write ; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth , and no man shutteth ; and shutteth , and no man openeth ; 8 I know thy works: behold , I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold , I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie ; behold , I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold , I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast , that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write ; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest * , I am rich, and increased with goods , and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich ; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed , and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear ; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see . 19 As many as I love , I rebuke and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent . 20 Behold , I stand at the door, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I showed you mine, now show me yours.
 

Bright Raven

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Heb 10:38
1 Cor 9:27

And hundreds of other places. Just look at this one chapter.

Messages to the 7 churches. Look at all the conditions, look at what they are threatened with if they do not change.

5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write ; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth , and no man shutteth ; and shutteth , and no man openeth ; 8 I know thy works: behold , I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold , I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie ; behold , I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold , I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast , that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write ; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest * , I am rich, and increased with goods , and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich ; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed , and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear ; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see . 19 As many as I love , I rebuke and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent . 20 Behold , I stand at the door, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I showed you mine, now show me yours.

Here are over 100 verses giving proof of eternal security. Is that enough. http://doctrine.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/eternal-security.html
 

Shasta

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Not sure that most Reformed folk would say that God causes people to fall. I am inclined to think that people are born fallen and objects of wraith, so causing some to fall is not necessary.

If that is so, how is God unjust? If one is saved it is a testimony to his goodness and grace. For none have to be saved. If he is gracious to some, does he have to be gracious to all in the same manner?

To answer your question, I would not say that God HAS to do anything. I just believe that, based on what the scriptures say, He wants to save people, that means anyone and everyone needy enough to want him. That is because He is merciful and kind and unwilling that any should perish. It is nothing that is imposed on Him, it is innate to who He is. God did not accept the world when there was no possibility of redemption. Instead He made a way to Himself by dying on the cross.

My remarks about God making people fall was directed at those who have been arguing for "double predestination" - that God predestines some people to hell and others to heaven according to His sovereign will. The reason I mentioned God actively ensuring people's damnation was because of what some say about God "hardening whom He wills." I think the hardening of the heart is a judgement that comes after people willfully reject the truth.

Most reformed people I know IRL would not go as far as to advocate double predestination but it is a belief I have heard. Most Reformed believers I know also do not fully accept the doctrine of Limited Atonement although I understand John MacArthur now accepted this and has become completely Calvinized. Well, I guess it HAD to happen.

I think Reformed Doctrine generally lends itself to certain extremes because of its emphasis on human inability, otherwise known as "total depravity." If people can be saved only by an exercise of irresistible Divine grace then being saved is solely up to God (monergism). It follows from this that a person who is not called cannot be saved. At that point I do not know how anyone could avoid the concluding that God whether by His action or inaction is ultimately responsible for the damnation as well as the salvation of his creatures . I do not think it is much better to say God "allowed" them to damn themselves when He most certainly could have saved them. Whether God secures their damnation by preparing them for hell or by withholding grace the outcome is the same.

I listen to and like many teachers in the Reformed movement although I quit listening when they get onto certain subjects. Though I believe they are in error on those points I know many to be sincere believers and try not to stereotype how they think and act. For instance, though I do not see how evangelism is compatible with predestination a lot of evangelists in the past believed reformed theology (shrug). My hope is always that we believers, myself included, will always act better than our individual errors.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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As to your defense of OSAS...
My defense is for perseverance of the saints, not OSAS. OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.

Believers are not mere punctiliar Christians. The Spirit waters and feeds our repentance and faith through the means of grace. These means keep us alive in the faith and are not just a means for starting us in the faith. God commands our ongoing attention to our faith, that we examine ourselves to make sure our faith is real. God also provides that which He commands, ordaining the ends as well as the means to the ends, even the believer's salvation. Augustine's little prayer sums it up: "O Lord, grant what Thou dost command and command what Thou dost desire." Pelagius never grasped what Augustine meant, failing to see that no one can please God unless God helps us in some manner to meet His requirements.

As Scripture teaches, enduring to the end, holding fast to the faith, abiding in Christ and His Word are essential to one's salvation. If these do not exist a professing Christian cannot expect to be saved.

But, and this is important, some hold that a true believer may not persevere and can be ultimately lost. Instead I believe that the true believer will in fact persevere. At this point, some would then ask, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions or conditions for salvation?" In reply I answer, as noted above, God ordains the end but also the means to the end.

One of those means of God to His final glory is the perseverance of the Christian in faith to the end. I understand that one way God effects this means of perseverance in the saved is by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end and the conditions for salvation. I take these admonishments seriously. These admonishments stir up the faithful.

An example might help explain this. Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was assured of their salvation, he knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result. The warnings are a means by God through which the faithful are stirred up and will in fact persevere.

Speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:2-5).

Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

In summary, the Reformed argue that the corrosive power of sin upon genuine faith cannot hollow it out, because the source of that faith is divine, the gifts of God are without repentance, the Lord knows them that are His, no one can pluck them out of his hands, He conquers those He loves and wins them infallibly to Himself, for they are chosen in love and in Christ from all eternity.

AMR
 
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Shasta

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Here are over 100 verses giving proof of eternal security. Is that enough. http://doctrine.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/eternal-security.html

Come now, Raven. We are here to enter into a discussion on these matters. There are a vast number of books, CDs, and Utubes dealing with this subject. These forum are here primarily so we can present our ideas and arguments not to refer others elsewhere. We can access google for that.

If you believe those 100 verses make an irrefutable case for you view present them one at a time and prove exegetically and through reason that they mean what you say they do. Also when someone gives you a scripture deal with it don't ignore it.

Of course, you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. Those are just my crazy ideas.
 

beloved57

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16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

1. Everlasting life is conditional upon "believing in Him".

2. God pours out his rain upon the good and the evil in this life, but He gives the next life only to those who believe in him. Their reward for not believing in Him is this life only, and that is no small act of grace. Then the unbelievers are burnt UP in hell. They are not ever burning - which would be very unloving. And God did not mention hell just to frighten us. It is as real as anything else mentioned in the Bible.

3. It is possible to stop believing in what you once believed in, and lose eternal life, because everlasting life is conditional upon believing (ongoing) in Him.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back , my soul shall have no pleasure in him

False teaching, those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 so they were saved even while they were enemies and unbelievers!
 

Bright Raven

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Come now, Raven. We are here to enter into a discussion on these matters. There are a vast number of books, CDs, and Utubes dealing with this subject. These forum are here primarily so we can present our ideas and arguments not to refer others elsewhere. We can access google for that.

If you believe those 100 verses make an irrefutable case for you view present them one at a time and prove exegetically and through reason that they mean what you say they do. Also when someone gives you a scripture deal with it don't ignore it.

Of course, you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. Those are just my crazy ideas.

Never said they did. But they are there. If you don't believe in eternal security, fine. At least I'm not worried that God will take away my salvation.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Ask Mr. Religion

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When you say from Gods perspective, do you mean they are Justified before God and by God before they believe and while enemies?Yes or No!

Oh, you are being silly now. All that has, is, or will happen in God's creation appear before Him equally vividly. So asking what God knows and when He knew it implies one does not have a full grasp of the eternal existence of God. Accordingly, one must distinguish between God's perspective and man's perspective, since man is bound in a timeless existence created by God.

This does not mean God is incapable of acting within His temporally created and orderly universe. These actions, as in our regeneration, occur in time, the time of the one so regenerated. The very regenerative act is predicated on the active and passive obedience of Our Lord, who became flesh and walked the earth, per our temporal existence. God understands temporal existence and His knowing what occurs in time springs from the fact that He created the very things to be known by Him.

So again I note from our perspective we are not eternally justified, for the very ground of our justification relies upon Our Lord's perfect work during His earthly sojourn among us.

Your question and the obvious underlying assumption you make behind it leads to all manner of foolishness. For example, using your rationale you could just as easily, but wrongly, say that Our Lord was crucified and resurrected appearing before God the Father in glory before the event actually happened. Obviously that makes no sense, as does your question. No one is justified before they believe. That God sees all these things equally vividly does not obviate the accompanying fact that God also knows exactly when in our temporal existence someone is justified.

Your view collapses the distinction between God's eternal decree of justification and the temporal justification itself. Your view also imports a notion that faith merely realizes justification somehow already possessed by the one believing, even before they actually believe.

Furthermore, your view would mean God sees no sin in believers even before they believe, since you claim their act of belief is a mirage of sorts. For God to not see any sin in the believer also means our Lord becomes personally a sinner, and believers are made personally righteous; any idea of Scriptural imputation vanishes.

No, your view is word salad.

AMR
 
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