The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.
What does the God of Calvinism give?
Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.
What does the God of Calvinism give?
beloved57
Well-known member
You dont believe or understand Jn 3:16 !
Shasta
Well-known member
Apparently you agree with the proposition that the Holy Spirit prepares men for destruction (damnation) by actively shaping them into blasphemers, idolators and murders (etc). There is no difference in this and the work of a potter who produces idols and obscene images.
It seems to me that the shape of a vessel in Romans refers not to its moral character but to how it is used. A bedpan is just as useful as a piece of tableware it is just a less honorable use.
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(Romans 9:21)
So what the clay is objecting to in Romans 9:20 is not that God made it a sinner. For one thing, God does not make people sinners and, by and large, sinners do not protest about being what they are. What the vessel is complaining about is how God opted to use them in His plan.
The whole context of Romans 9-10 is about how God dealt with two peoples: the Jews and Gentiles. Originally the Jews had been brought into a special relationship with God and given the promise that they would become "a nation of priests" ministering the truth of God to the nations. That would have been an "honorable use." However, when they rejected Jesus they lost the lead role in this project and that along with the promises of the New Covenant was inherited by the Gentiles. The apostate Jews were still not without a part in God's plan. Even men who oppose God can be used to bring about an even more spectacular display of divine grace and power than would have been known had they yielded (Romans 9:17).
God did not have to show the Gentiles this mercy any more than he had to show his mercy to that liar and swindler Jacob (Romans 9:15). By being merciful to these unworthy people God revealed His abundant grace and love. On the other hand, Jacob, like the Gentile believers did not try to manufacture his own righteousness. They accepted that they were sinful and trusted in God.
On the other hand, God's treatment of the Jews was not unfair since, after all, they had balked at Jesus "the stumbling stone" Instead of humbling themselves and obtaining righteousness from Him they had tried to manufacture their own righteousness (Romans 9:31-32)
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beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that God will punish perfectly righteous individuals He sees in Christ, as Perfect believers and Law Keepers ! You make God Unjust !
Shasta
Well-known member
Thank you for the correction. After reading more on the subject I see that my confusion had to do with subtle differences between the doctrines of (1)Augustine/Aquinas/Luther, (2)Calvin and (3) the “Free Grace” eternal security doctrine that is taught by many Baptists.
One article I read contrasted (1) and (2) in the following way:
This was the opinion of Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther. In this paradigm it is possible for someone who is a believer to fall away from real faith in Christ. They will either be restored or they will be lost in which case it will be evident that they were not among the elect.
This is the doctrine of Calvin which you articulated. Apparently then there is more than one view of “eternal security”
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/20...edly-one-reason-to-prefer-luther-over-calvin/
Again, I think it is worth noting that none of the Greek-speaking theologians and apologists of the first three to four centuries before Augustine believed in or taught a single petal of TULIP. However, since Augustine spoke only Latin he was unable to read what his predecessors had written. His inability to read the original Greek text of scripture also made him dependent on corrupt Latin translations which in caused Him to misinterpret key passages and led him to accept doctrines like infant damnation. From his background in Gnosticism he imported the concepts of inability and determinism into the Church. These have now been accepted as truth by the Reformed Churches.
Even a casual reading of the Early Church Fathers reveals that they opposed every petal of TULIP. They also believed in conditional salvation and affirmed human freewill. The last time I posted some quotes showing their opposition to TULIP you accused me of proof-texting but what they believed is common knowledge.
As to your defense of OSAS - that "a son cannot be unborn," this is a simple misuse of a metaphor. When we go back to the scriptures we find that while sons cannot be “unborn” they can be disowned. When the prodigal, who was a true son, rebelled and left home the father considered him to be dead. This meant that his relationship to the father and his legal rights as a son had been terminated. When the son repented and returned the father said "my son who was dead is alive (again)"
As to Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith the context of that passage does not at all give the picture of an eternal end already settled and secure.
let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (Hebrews 12:2)
It is true that Jesus is the one who will bring our faith to completion. However our responsibility is to "fix our eyes on Him," and lay aside every encumbrance and sin. We have to endure and not give up. The race is not over until we cross the finish line. It is how we finish that counts.
Shasta
Well-known member
But doesn't your God design people to be blasphemers. If so, then what right does the vessel have to complain about how it is made? No one has a choice anyway, do they?
Good point! I enjoy reading your post.
B57 and others, believe that God creates reprobates so that he can vent his wrath on them and damn them to hell.
I can't see where this God would get much glory out of this.
He creates them as reprobates and then destroys them. What fun is that?
beloved57
Well-known member
I have explained my views on My God in this forum, nothing to hide, have you read my Threads?
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach of a unjust god that condemns to Hell fire those who are perfectly righteous!
I do? Where? Post #.
beloved57
Well-known member
Answer this questions honestly and you will see where! Do you believe that Men and Women that Christ lived and died for shall wind up in Hell lost in their sins in unbelief? Yes or No?
Shasta
Well-known member
I have written and posted answers to the same questions many times. I never send people elsewhere to read my answers. I try to address what that person is saying then and there even if it means pasting previous replies (which I seldom do) That is what you need to do to make your point. Personally i am not willing to go on a treasure hunt when I know already that there is no treasure buried there only bones.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.
But its not yours if you don't receive it and believe it, John 3:18.
Shasta
Well-known member
God creates a vessel specifically to sin then smashes it to show how powerful He is. It sounds more like Allah than the God of the Bible.
beloved57
Well-known member
So answer the questions,yes or no? Don't be scared!
I don't that that the Muslims would touch that with a 20' pole.
The Calvinist doctrine is unteachable and unbelievable.
Shasta
Well-known member
The Muslims do believe in predestination. Not only do they believe that God determines who will be damned or saved but also that He micro-manages every process that goes on in the universe.
Allah's choices, like Calvin's God's are purely arbitrary and need not be fair. Because he is all-powerful Allah cannot be held to any standard. He can do whatever he wants and still be right. He can even deceive people to achieve his ends. "There is no greater deceiver than Allah" Muhammed once said. The Calvinist term for this attribute is "sovereignty." This is why whenever we point out the injustice inherent in Calvin's system we are told "who are you to question your maker?" I think the theology of Muhammed and Calvin's are related. Both systems are based on the overriding principle of power.
The God of the Bible is just, not because He is powerful and can bully people into accepting what He says as "right" but because by his very nature He is just and righteous as well as compassionate and merciful.
3“For I proclaim the name of the LORD;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
4“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He
(Deuteronomy 32:3-4)
Calvin's God is not just because He causes people to fail, gives them no way out and then damns them forever for what they could not help doing - all to show how powerful He is. Allah, like 57's concept of God, does not love the world either. He only loves those who submit to Him.
Brother Ducky
New member
I think you are incorrect here. The doctrine is certainly taught, and it is certainly believed.
Yeah, you are incorrect. So I hope I do not have to see this bit of inaccuracy again from you.
Brother Ducky
New member
Any time you speak of the re-imputation of sins.
Any time you say any living person is damned.